All this talk about Iran...

[Localizer]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

hey if you can't laugh at the black death, then who can you laugh at?

I hear Tetanus is a good time.

[rubyraks]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

As for # 2, I'll do you one better.... just get rid of all religious people. Nothing but troublemakers, every last one of them.

That'd knock out the majority of this country as well (not that this is an entirely bad idea )

[subterFUSE]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

That'd knock out the majority of this country as well (not that this is an entirely bad idea )

Oh.... believe me..... I know.

[Lorn]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

I say we get rid of all the non-believers.

[thesightless]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

It wasn't muslims that destroyed African nations. It wasn't muslims that brought disease to the new world and collapse of some of the greatest empires in the world. While Europe was sifting through the dark ages, Persian nations were hard at work helping to uncover science hand-in-hand with Europeans. Everything that is occurring now is occurring because either the Americas or Europeans were hardcore imperialists. I think this quote serves it's purpose:

im not gonna say kill off a society, but you are missing a few hundred years of history. you ever hear of the conquest of palestine int eh 7th century? the muslim expansion and invasion of what is known as spain, portugal, adnd france?? these were violent military campaigns expanding the religion becasue the judeo-christo areas resisted. byzantine empire ring a bell? pope urban? the muslims werent doing anything peaceful, ever. the only peace they had was in the heart of thier own society, and because they ruled with an iron fist. and this all happened b4 the cursades were even thought of. so donrt bring those up. they were a response to this. they fucked up the whole region that is essentially still at war today. ppl blame the jews for the problems there, but no one wants to admit the fact the muslims were wrecking shit long before the english decided to give the jews a stake in thier homelenad in 1947. a homeland they had to flee because they were dead if rthey tried to fight back.

[88Mariner]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

the youth or Iran are fed up. I bet there'd be a coup/revolution attempt, if not two, before any rounds were exchanged between us and them. i heard somewhere that the iranian gov't is not widely supported as most think...i'll have to double check my source on this...but yes.

[toasty]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

the youth or Iran are fed up. I bet there'd be a coup/revolution attempt, if not two, before any rounds were exchanged between us and them. i heard somewhere that the iranian gov't is not widely supported as most think...i'll have to double check my source on this...but yes.

I've heard that as well. The irony is that if there was if there is one country in the ME that is actually ripe for westernization, it is probably Iran -- at least amongst the populace.

[Localizer]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

im not gonna say kill off a society, but you are missing a few hundred years of history. you ever hear of the conquest of palestine int eh 7th century? the muslim expansion and invasion of what is known as spain, portugal, adnd france?? these were violent military campaigns expanding the religion becasue the judeo-christo areas resisted. byzantine empire ring a bell? pope urban? the muslims werent doing anything peaceful, ever. the only peace they had was in the heart of thier own society, and because they ruled with an iron fist. and this all happened b4 the cursades were even thought of. so donrt bring those up. they were a response to this. they fucked up the whole region that is essentially still at war today. ppl blame the jews for the problems there, but no one wants to admit the fact the muslims were wrecking shit long before the english decided to give the jews a stake in thier homelenad in 1947. a homeland they had to flee because they were dead if rthey tried to fight back.

edit: not worth the frustration.

[Shpira]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

If you are skeptical that Iran is involved in the Iraq insurgency, then forgive me for calling you crazy. I'm sorry.... but no serious person can possibly deny that Iran is involved in Iraq now.

You were never "lied to". The word "lie" means to knowingly deceive another. The entire world watched Saddam use WMDs on the Kurds and the Iranians. Everyone knew he had them. He never supplied proof of disarmament. Therefore we had to assume that he still had them. You can't make the assumption that all of these weapons which once existed suddenly disappeared into thin air. Personally, I believe they have been transferred to Syria.... or possibly buried in Iraq. Saddam certainly had enough time to plan for it. The damned UN wasted so much fucking time, he could have hidden just about anything he had.

I'm not trying to be a Bush apologist here.... but if you want to be honest, you must concede the simple fact that worldwide intelligence agencies all agreed that Saddam had WMDs.

Man your wrong...do you really think wars such as this one are started on "assumptions"???
I mean you can't just assume that some one has a gun in their pocket and shoot them down on the street for it. A great deal of intel is needed and obtained before any military conflict!
Also I don't know if its been publicized so much in the US as it has in the UK... it is now said that the US and UK govt knew that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction but merely thought that he was supporting terorists...
and furthermore I just want to add that you can't really compare WW1 with today...and the fact that some weapons were found in Washington under a building tells you perhaps something about your own govt?

[subterFUSE]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

Man your wrong...do you really think wars such as this one are started on "assumptions"???
I mean you can't just assume that some one has a gun in their pocket and shoot them down on the street for it. A great deal of intel is needed and obtained before any military conflict!
Also I don't know if its been publicized so much in the US as it has in the UK... it is now said that the US and UK govt knew that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction but merely thought that he was supporting terorists...
and furthermore I just want to add that you can't really compare WW1 with today...and the fact that some weapons were found in Washington under a building tells you perhaps something about your own govt?

The justification for the Iraq War was based on more than just the WMD argument.

Here are some important pieces of information you are leaving out:


1. Following the first gulf war, there was a cease-fire agreement. Saddam violated this cease-fire agreement every day for over 12 years, by firing on US and British military aircraft patrolling the No Fly Zone. Violating any portion of the cease-fire agreement was legal grounds for the removal of Saddam. This fact alone made the removal of Saddam legal. The US and British forces were bombing, almost daily, Iraqi anti-aircraft artillary positons. These attacks had to be stepped up dramatically during the time after 9/11 and leading on to the second Iraq War.

2. Iraq violated 17 UN Resolutions calling for disarmament. He expelled weapons inspectors, and when he did allow them in the country, they were not allowed into critical areas. The UN Resolutions called for serious consequences in the event of non-compliance, and the final Resolution (1441) called directly for the complete and transparent proof of disarmament, which Saddam refused.

3. Saddam had used WMDs on the Kurds, and on Iran.

4. Saddam's various WMD programs were well known. As early as the 1970s, Saddam had ordered a nuclear weapons program. They were supplied chemical weapons by various governments and businesses around the world. Germany, in particular, gave them mustard gas, sarin gas, etc... Other German companies supplied biological agents such as botulism. They also gave centrifuge technology which could be used to develop nuclear weapons. France gave nuclear technology, including helping to build a nuclear reactor (Which Israel eventually bombed). Italy gave nuclear materials such as plutonium.... as well as rockets designed to deliver chemical agents. Even the USA gave things which aided the Iraqi weapons programs: high-tech computers which were used in the nuke program, and biological samples which the CDC gave for medical research (but were instead used to develop weapons). The list goes on and on.... nearly every country in Europe gave Iraq weapons, checmicals, biological or nuclear agents.

None of this was in question, or dispute.

The queston isn't.... "Did Saddam have any weapons at all?"
The question is.... "What did he do with what he had?"

We don't know the answer to that question.... and I, for one, am not comfortable with assuming he had nothing.... as so many people today seem to think. There's just too much evidence in his past which shows he had weapons. We can't just ignore 30 years of history.

My story about the WWI munitions being hidden in the ground in Washington DC was merely to make a simple point.... That it is possible to hide large stockpiles of weapons. If it can be done inside the city limits of Washington, DC for over 60 years without detection..... then it could have been done in Iraq. Am I saying that's what I think happened? Maybe... I just don't know. I'm just saying it is possible, and because it is possible.... I don't feel comfortable with just saying: "Saddam had no weapons." When you have a 30 year history like his, you just can't ignore it all like that. But that's what people are doing now.

SOMETHING happened to Iraq's weapons during the time inspectors were not in the country.... 1998-2003. I am not satisfied with just saying: "Oh well, we didn't find a warehouse with cases of VX gas.... so I guess he never had anything." We need to find out what happened to them.

The "threat" Saddam posed was never one of direct attacks on the USA. It was the indirect threat of supplying terror organizations with weapons. Maybe this already happened? What if they got moved to Syria? We certainly telegraphed our intentions for a long time, so he had the time to do it. I think this is enitrely possible, and I hope we figure it out soon.

[Bululu]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

Its sad to see people believe that the US attacked Iraq to protect the world from Evil Saddam , you guys are in deep shit in Iraq so let's see how you can get out of it, by the way wait soon for a new episod of the defamation Saga , Iran owns the nuclear bomb and we have to bomb them.

[subterFUSE]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

Its sad to see people believe that the US attacked Iraq to protect the world from Evil Saddam , you guys are in deep shit in Iraq so let's see how you can get out of it, by the way wait soon for a new episod of the defamation Saga , Iran owns the nuclear bomb and we have to bomb them.

It's equally sad to watch the world sit by and do nothing after they have demanded that a country disarm itself, and allow inspectors to verify it. What is the point of drafting 17 resolutions, and never taking action? What is the lesson taken away by other countries? Ignore the UN.... because they will never take action. Fuck them, right?

[Shpira]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

Well I for one do not feel any more comfort with the fact that Bush possesses a higher or even equal amount of wmd capabilities as Saddam did...
and if I was in a position of power in any country named i.e. Iran, Iraq or N. Korea...I would refuse to disarm or allow weapons inspectors in!
Why the hell should I allow them to look under my bed!
I mean look at Iraq today are people there any happier, have they received any benefits of the democracy...no...you can argue that not enough time has passed. But nevertheless...its even worse than it was before...I mean far from that I support Saddam or the Iranians but at least Saddam kept the different factions in check...same as many before him (Stalin in the USSR, Tito in Yugoslavia...) as soon as he was removed they all claimed their piece of the pie if they tried that nationalist shit while he was around they were clipped and it hurt...

I mean I even spoke to some Iraqis that arrived to the UK recently and they claimed that devisions were never this strong even while Saddam was around...

Also I believe its beneficial to the west (and when I say the west I don't just meant the US) to have a destabilized situation in the middle east so that they can protect their own interests i.e. Oil...while preventing Arab's from getting organized and getting whats due to them...more money.


This is clear if we look at Saudi Arabia where fucking psychos are in power (one of which I met...a son of a sheik went to school with me and showed me photos of dog hunting with an M1 tank!!! absolutely insane- a gift of the US govt)....they stay in power through US protection.

Actually if you look just look at this

http://www.isis-europe.org/ftp/Download/arms%20exports%20post%209%2011%20-%20ESR%2011.pdf

I think you might get a clearer picture!

[subterFUSE]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

In response:


1. The USA has so much more WMD capability, it's not even funny.

2. So you don't think the United Nations should have any weight in global affairs? OK.... fine. I agree with you 100%. So let's disband the UN, then.... because if it isn't going to have any bearing, why even have it in the first place?

3. The issue of benefits to Iraqi people depend largely on who you ask. Certainly the sunni people are not very happy. But the Kurds and Shi'a populations are quite happy to have Saddam gone.

4. About oil? You bet your fucking ass it's about oil. And I'm fucking glad someone is worried about it..... because oil is the single most important factor to human life on this planet...... PERIOD. Without oil, we die..... end of story. This isn't some joke.... oil is like the lifeblood of the modernized world. Every time I listen to someone complain about "no blood for oil" I just laugh... because they don't even get it. They don't understand how important oil is to our world. If you cut off our oil supplies tomorrow, it would be less than 1 week before this planet descended into total anarchy. Millions and millions of people would die, from starvation and exposure to the elements. Economies would collapse. It would be the end of the world. So..... yeah.... we're fighting over oil. And I'm fucking glad we are, because I want to keep living.

[Shpira]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

When I talked about the US and Saddam having WMD's I was just making a point that I think both Bush and Saddam are practically equal lunatics and that I don't sleep any better at night knowing that Saddam has(had) them or that Bush does...so I wasn't talking about quantities.

Yeah OK oil is crucial but who are you or anyone else to decide the faith of the world as you so bluntly put it?

I for one would prefer not to have someone else fighting for oil in my name so thank you but no thank you...

If you look at arms sales by the US post 9/11 you will see that the US sold apache helicopters to Turkey which it openly announced will be used to fight the Kurdish rebells the US is so eager to save in Iraq...hipocracy at its best form.

Who made you or George W. in charge of deciding what the world needs or doesn't need and how to best satisfy those needs?

O.K. it might be what we rely on so heavily (the US more than others) but why is it you who decides who gets to live and who has to die, who gets to eat who gets to starve?

Policing the world is an exclusive duty of the west in which the US takes incredible satisfaction?!