All this talk about Iran...

[toasty]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

james, please say something with an opinion in it. stop dancing around it. lets have it. i can find the facts, what do you think the solution is? and "i dont know" or "long term dialogue" isnt a valid answer.

Not sure which of my posts this is referring to. I thought my last one pretty clearly set forth an opinion. Oh well...

[thesightless]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

the rooting the problem or the kissing our ass part?

if the rooting the problem out, i want your ideas on executing that. i.e. will it be a military intervention done proerly whereas we aid the formation of a government that is willing to play nicely on the global scale? maybe some action against governments like NK, who btw, in case we forgot, set off a nuke last year without notice., or iran, a gov't that claims it has no ill will in its nuclear aims, even though it refuses to show proof? how?

i know you are far too intelligent to not have a defined opinion and ideas on how to act, so give your honest opinion, i dont care if it is a call for another hitler whose target is the muslims this time around. but back it up.

if it is the kiss our solution, then how? are you willing to share my POV on that idea. a true starvation of the society via trade barriers and economic isolation? maybe forcing the value of a shipment of grain to the middle east equate to a whole barrel of oil? the complete abandonment of funding to these places? the prevention of so called western business investment in the middle east? pretending they simply dont exist past oil trade until they agress on a country who is acting properly on the global scale?


there was a lot more to this post the first time around, but my router went as i hit the reply button and lost it all. i just want some more details on your idea for a solution, not just telling us what we already know. the middle east, is, will be and has been for 1700 years, a royally fucked up place that cant keep its own house in order.

[toasty]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

Oh. I thought it was obvious which path I was advocating, but I guess not...

My point is that we need to put ourselves in a position where our very existence doesn't hang in the balance of the world's oil supply, and I don't mean it in terms of a military solution or an us-vs-them posture. I don't really have time to go into it right now and will try to put something forward later, but chew on this in the interim:

Suppose that we had taken the amount of money that has been spent on this war in the last year alone and had instead invested that into technologies to reduce our need for petroleum. If that had happened, and we had had some success, would we even be in Iraq right now? If subterFUSE is correct and our need for oil has such an impact on our policy abroad -- and for what it is worth, I think he's basically right -- we can change our policy by taking it upon ourselves to change our own needs.

Put another way, think about how much money we've spent over the past 4 years because we are forced to give a shit what happens in the Mid East. Wouldn't you like to not care?

More later.

[thesightless]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

even if we begin oil alternatives right this moment, (they already have begun, for years now), it is essentially guaranteed that it will take a few decades to get the planet on board. so how do we address it it int he meantime. the period of time where false hopes and well wishing during talks and UN resolutions that have no effect is long gone IMHO, and right now, the pussies are stepping to the forefront and the dicks and pussies are rapidly being covered in shit.

[Shpira]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

I read what you guys were saying while I was away...
I have to say that I agree with what clearly must be done and that is to decrease the west's dependence on oil through new technology. Look at Germany for example it had a green govt and as a result produces twice as much renewable energy as the US.

Furthermore the mid east can never be starved into submission for simple reason of mother Russia while Putsky or anyone like him is in power he will not honor the embargo and will be more than glad to sell wheat or anything else for that matter.
I give Putin my full support on most things he has done and most things he is doing...

Why would he stand aside and watch as the west starves the mid east...free market economies and all...or does that apply only when it suits the west?!

The reason why this solution has not been applied is quite clear...if you take into account that the US govt did not sign the Kyoto Treaty (went as far as not admit global warming was happening...I mean wake up people) and that most of Bush's campaign money comes from oil companies, weapons manufacturers and other big business that rely on oil heavily the picture becomes very clear...


Its cheaper to finance a sympathetic govt than it is to change your whole business!!!

The President of the United States and most of the US Establishment are money hungry cunts that only care about filling their own pockets in the short run and having as much power over the faith of others with a simple aim of exploiting them!!!

its clear that almost no one with any amount of power in Washington gives a shit about anything mentioned above...these problems could have been solved EASILY!!!

[toasty]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

even if we begin oil alternatives right this moment, (they already have begun, for years now), it is essentially guaranteed that it will take a few decades to get the planet on board.

Yes, things have been under way for quite some time, but I'm not convinced that they have really been being pursued in earnest, at least not as they should have been. We've always heard of oil companies buying off competing technology before they can become a threat to their business. If that's the case, there ought to be tons of great ideas that haven't been pursued.

Conspiracy theories aside, though, I've always believed that if push came to shove, we could probably adopt alternative technologies much quicker than you might think. I'm suggesting that we need not wait until we're truly fucked before we really start looking into ways to wean ourselves off of oil. Its already led us into a disastrous war, now is not the time to sit around with our thumb up our ass waiting for the other shoe to drop.

[Lorn]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

I already know the solution us or them.. just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't real..

You are right. History sure testifies to this way of action.

Also I think the USA Canada Great Britain and Mexico should join together and call it the United Union of the West or something. Make it known its us vs. them..

I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this happen in this century.

[Localizer]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

james, please say something with an opinion in it. stop dancing around it. lets have it. i can find the facts, what do you think the solution is? and "i dont know" or "long term dialogue" isnt a valid answer.



and people stop ignoring the fact that the whole region is, always will be, and always has been a giant clusterfuck for the last 1700 years. i forget who said that the muslims were working hand in hand with europe and bolstering science, but i think mike moore syndrome popped its head in there. yes, i hate to coin the religion as a whole, but its time to call it like it is. maybe if we opt for choice 2 up there, they will be forced to clean thier own house when EVERYONE turns thier back and money on the region.'

Reading comprehension wasn't your strong point was it?

I think it's pretty clear by that statement that you don't necessarily read and comprehend information as well as the majority of the population. I understand your ideas, but your presentation is as good as a pile of Sub's crap.

[davetlv]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

Melanie Phillips has some thoughts on the subject. An interesting read.

Got to love that feisty old British hack

February 15, 2007

The war against the west

As has often been remarked, the capacity of the intellectual classes to deny the need for action against tyranny never ceases to amaze. If you want to tap into British denial of the need to confront the threat from Iran, listen to last night?s Moral Maze on BBC Radio Four. Particularly astounding was the suggestion that we should stop ?demonising? Iran ? and of course, there were the inevitable claims that America is fabricating evidence that Iran is involved in Iraq in order to whip up a false case for invading Iran just as it ?fabricated evidence? for invading Iraq. Leave aside the case for war with Iraq for a second ? the idea that America, which is in such difficulties in Iraq, would actually choose to embark on an all-out war with Iran at this juncture, with all the appalling risks involved, not least to the world economy, simply in order to ?cover up? its difficulties in Iraq, is bizarre in the extreme.

It is not helped, of course, by the appallingly ham-fisted way in which the Bush administration has presented its evidence about Iranian roadside bombs blowing up coalition soldiers in Iraq. No sooner than the munitions were unveiled complete with serial numbers when General Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, popped up to say ?that does not translate that the Iranian government, per se, for sure, is directly involved in doing this.? The New York Times today reported a further statement by a clearly irritated President Bush that elements within the Iran government had supplied these bombs, but he did not know whether Iran?s highest officials had directed the attacks:

Mr. Bush?s remarks amounted to his most specific accusation to date that Iran was undermining security in Iraq. They appeared to be part of a concerted effort by the White House to present a clearer, more direct case that Iran was supplying the potent weapons ? and to push back against criticism that the intelligence used in reaching the conclusions was not credible.

Speaking at a news conference in the East Room of the White House, Mr. Bush dismissed as ?preposterous? the contention by some skeptics that the United States was drawing unwarranted conclusions about Iran?s role. He publicly endorsed assertions that had until now been presented only by anonymous military and intelligence officials, who have said that an elite branch of Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps known as the Quds Force has provided Shiite militias in Iraq with the sophisticated weapons that have been responsible for killing at least 170 American soldiers and wounding more than 600.

?I can say with certainty that the Quds Force, a part of the Iranian government, has provided these sophisticated I.E.D.?s that have harmed our troops,? Mr. Bush said, using the abbreviation for improvised explosive device. ?And I?d like to repeat, I do not know whether or not the Quds Force was ordered from the top echelons of the government. But my point is, what?s worse, them ordering it and it happening, or them not ordering it and its happening??

This is hopeless. How can the west be defended when America is not even able to present a coherent case for the involvement of Iran in Iraq? The evidence of this involvement has been known for years. This was finally rammed home when a group on Iranian officers was captured in Iraq, whose documents left the Americans aghast at the vast extent of Iran?s involvement in Iraq ? which these officers apparently said had been sanctioned at the highest level. The Quds Force, indeed, reports straight to the Supreme Leader of Iran himself. The problem, as ever, is the US administration is deeply divided over this evidence and what to do about it, as it has been over Saddam Hussein and the war in Iraq, with the intelligence community trying to cover up its own incompetence and elements within the military deeply unwilling to open up another front against Iran.

Meanwhile, Iran speeds towards genocide, with people still scoffing that it?s ?only rhetoric?. I recommend people to read this case for the indictment of Ahmadinejad on the charge of incitement to genocide ? including the excellent footnotes and their references ? to judge whether it we should regard it as ?only rhetoric? or whether it is imperative that we act now to prevent a second holocaust or the world being held to ransom by a nuclear-armed apocalyptic messianist with genocidal intentions.

We have been under attack by Iran since 1979, when Khomeini came to power and declared war upon the west and his intention to wipe out Israel and Islamise the world. Throughout three subsequent decades of Iranian attacks on western interests, we did virtually nothing. Now, with the clock at five minutes to nuclear midnight, we are still in disarray. Washington is mired in vicious internal in-fighting. Our elites continue to demonise America and Israel, thus paralysing our politicians and paving the way for a second holocaust. Meanwhile, we plunge ever deeper into total irrationality, with demented conspiracy theories about 9/11 being given a respectful hearing ? as here on BBC Radio 2?s Jeremy Vine show and here.


When are we going to pull ourselves together?

[thesightless]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

what didnt i read in this

It wasn't muslims that destroyed African nations. It wasn't muslims that brought disease to the new world and collapse of some of the greatest empires in the world. While Europe was sifting through the dark ages, Persian nations were hard at work helping to uncover science hand-in-hand with Europeans. Everything that is occurring now is occurring because either the Americas or Europeans were hardcore imperialists. I think this quote serves it's purpose

dude, the middle east and north africa were the site of wars every century since about 600 AD. early on, they were based on the ideas of religous rule expansion. when were they working hand in hadn

[Shpira]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

^^^Yeah but you have to appriciate the fact that that early in history they had mastered the art of mass slaughter!!!

No seriously though they WERE more advanced than europe in the begining...

[thesightless]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

stop trying to help me in this question please, you are making me sound like i am blaming the islamic church for each of the worlds evils. hardly, all i did was see a half fact, i.e. one that was partially true, but was missing a lot. the persian empire did make gains, but they were not working hand in with the europeans. disease was around for millenia before american and european imperialists, in fact, there was war on the african continent's northern end since about 600. 90% it was a result of an agression of an arab or persian dynasty.

[Lorn]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

The war against the west

Interesting.

[davetlv]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

since about 600.

I believe the year of note is actually 622 C.E.

[Shpira]

Re: All this talk about Iran...

I am really loosing the point of this whole argument....wasn't this something to do with the current events...

p.s. those F16's come from the proud country of Venezuela courtesy of our dear friend Hugo Chavez! Who has aquired himself a brand new set of su 37 the worlds no.1 aircraft...He said that he wants to sink at least one US aircraft carrier in case of US invassion.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1o3rov7cB4[/youtube]