WW II less than Iraq

[Miroslav]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

ok, so the US screwed up with Iraq. Probably wasn't a good idea to go in there the way they did. And of course it was a highly self serving action. I think it's safe to put that out there and admit it. but separately from this issue...

it's also true that modern day Islamic societies have some serious issues ingrained deeply within their cultures related to violent extremism, which they seem to promote. and these issues will continue to harvest extremely negative consequences for then and the rest of the world.

let's be honest and admit that as well. I oftentimes think that some of us on here prefer to ignore this in favor of just bashing the US.

[thesightless]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

Your country the US, and Iran are the only countries benifiting from whats happening in Iraq , you have one less enemy in the region busy with civil war , and US are pumping oil for free, but let's not forget Iran is still there. let's see what is goign to happen in the coming year or so , things will get more intresting I am sure.

.

how dumb are you? seriously, how far gone?

this is the basis for every arguement you have on this board. NO ONE PUMPS OIL FOR FREE. in fact, everyone pays the same on the open market on a day by day basis. the only countries that dont pay for oil on the open market are kuwait, venezuala, and saudi arabia. they own thier own processing plants, pumps, rigs, and associated materials. every other country, goes to a commodeities market where oil processing companies sell it. oil processing companies are hired by either the host country or the landowner.
where the hell are we pumping oil for free?

its a shame i took you off my ignore list. you cannot possibly be this thick to ignore such huge facts such as oil being a traded commodity. please stay out. nothing you say has any current real world data viable to the arguements.

[Bululu]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

Fuck off . I ve been trying to avoid talking to you since many months , your igonrant list you can sick it up your ass. If I'll argue again with you about what I mean by FREE , we're not goign to end up, just avoid answering my posts.

[thesightless]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

eat my hairy italian asshole. last time we brought out the fact that you dont know the facts behind your asinine opinions you stopped posting too. so answer the fucking question if your gonna open your mouth. how and who are pumping free oil and how, outside of market demand does the US control oil, considering that we only have 2 domestic firms that compete globally as oil retialers. next you will be telilng me halliburton is the reason that africa has an AIDS epidemic. if you hate america so much, maybe hanging around a forum run and populated by americans is not the best option? whaddya think? time to go hit the www.liberalpussiesfromapenalcolony.com forums.

btw werent you the one who said hezzbollah did nothing wrong last summer and isreal should be destroyed? where the hell is corporal gilat now?

[davetlv]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

The web is full of Arab muslims , to your info Muslims are 1 billion and counting , and I guarantee you that 90% don't have interent so you sir can read what they think , and I am in a better position to tell if muslims are with or against these acts , I guess I know more than you about this religion.

You're right bulululululululu Muslims are 1 billion plus - i wonder how that happened. Oh hang on, I know, occupation, war and murder.

Islam is growing religion based on the ideology of join us or we kill you. Some religion of peace you have there mate.

Your comments are true about 90% don't have interent is, your fucking religious leaders and political dictators wouldn't want real information getting to the followers of your death cult now would they!

By restricting access to information means that muslims will believe what ever their fanatical Imams tell them - what a route to creating more mass murders.

Your occupying country is the first country benifiting from all whats happening in that region , Intra - Palestinian fighting, Lebanesse Political situation, Iraqi civil war , and now Iran. But I am sure that Iran will be a hard target for you to get, this is why I said in my previous post that the coming months are going to be interesting. Let's see if your country dares to hit Iran .

My occupying country. Really. Spoken like a true follower of the death cult.

For your information twat my country existed long before your sacred prophet took a child to be his wife.

Open your eyes moron. People are being murdered on daily basis in the name of your so called religion of peace whilst you infect the western world with your sick values.

[Bululu]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

Oh he are the allies uniting again . The sightless , don't start crying like a bitch so the whole forum would stand on your side , I used to argue with you on a basis of one to one , so don't try to implicate other people from the forum to turn against me , thats how bitches act, the forum is not yours.

[thesightless]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

what the fuck are you going on about now?

from the US stealing iraqi oil for free to me getting the board against you. all i said was you never have any factual basis for your side that cant be used against your arguement. well good, NEWS TEAM ASSEMBLE, we have a mission. to shoot down this jackass's mindless ranting on how the jews and US are out to ruin the world only after killing the muslims to the very end. (someone tell the few million muslims worshipping freely here to run before the US realizes that we indeed to have a muslim population.)

[davetlv]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

Oh he are the allies uniting again . The sightless , don't start crying like a bitch so the whole forum would stand on your side , I used to argue with you on a basis of one to one , so don't try to implicate other people from the forum to turn against me , thats how bitches act, the forum is not yours.

Whilst I might like Sean I certainly don't agree with everything he says.

You however say nothing of worth. All you do is blame everyone but the followers of your death cult for the mess you are in.

Your paedophile prophet and your mass murdering Imams are to blame for the hatred many people have towards your ilk.

I wonder how many followers of your death cult there would be if people were not threatened with murder unless they convert to religion of piss?

[thesightless]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

Whilst I might like Sean I certainly don't agree with everything he says.

SAME HERE, for me, i dont even remotely share your distaste with a relgion as a whole, hell i was in a serious relaitonship with a muslim girl, i realize its a grouping of vocal assholes ruining the place. simply because no one there ever learned that they can stand up for themselves. look at egypt's bloggers, irans women, and more. maybe it is more of a societal idea that no one has the gall to stand up against ppl like the taleban, but when you let them speak for you, it does fall on your shoulders.

[Shpira]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

For once I agree with you sightless and we (the Serbs) had every right to ethnically cleans the land that belongs to us as did the Bosnians, Croats and the Albanians so why the fuck did the US and the UN have to get involved lets return to anarchy and slaughter all enemies!!!
Oh...how I wish i was born 500-600 years ago...I could be bathing in human blood and raping virgins!!!
p.s. I am just joking...well at least about raping and ethnic cleansing...
I do understand that there can be no rules to war...but how would you justify conflicts to you population???

[thesightless]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

long term benifits for the whole entire planet? look at the area encompassing china and the surrounding region. united by war in the begining. grew together with law and prosperity. or just look at europe right now. 60 years ago, it was a giant battlefeild. now you have the EU. took a major war to unite the factions, and get governments in place that wouldnt try to off a religion.

[Shpira]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

^^^hahaha...Yeah you could justify anything with long term benefits- work like an ass today and you'll get a promotion....kill all Jews/Arabs end the middle east crisis...nationalise all property end the class strugle...lol...everything for long term benefits.

[dig72]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

stop being pussies people. like when hezzbollah did what they did last year, and everyone said isreal was wrong... no they werent, if i kidnapped you family and bombed your neighborhood, i hope you wouldnt say "oh shit, it wasnt officially a declared war action so we cant react.

Olmert's Truth
10/03/07


IF GOD wills, even a broomstick will shoot. That is an old Yiddish adage. One could add now: If God wills, even Olmert can sometimes tell the truth.
The truth, according to the Prime Minister's testimony before the Inquiry Commission headed by Judge Vinograd that was leaked to the media yesterday, is that this was not a spontaneous reaction to the capture of the two soldiers, but a war planned a long time ago. We said so right from the start.

Olmert told the commission that immediately after assuming the functions of acting prime minister, in January 2006, he consulted with the army chiefs about the situation on the northern border. Until then, the prevailing doctrine followed Ariel Sharon's decision - logical from his point of view - not to react in force to provocations in the north, so that the Israeli army could concentrate on fighting the Palestinians. But this enabled Hizbullah to build up a large stockpile of rockets of all kinds. Olmert decided to change that policy.

The army prepared a two-pronged plan: an operation on the ground aimed at the elimination of Hizbullah, and an aerial offensive, aimed at the destruction of the Lebanese infrastructure, in order to put pressure on the Lebanese public which in turn would put pressure on Hizbullah. As the Chief of Staff, Dan Halutz, said at the beginning of the war: "we shall turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years." (a rather modest aim, compared to the famous proposal of an American colleague: to "bomb Vietnam back to the stone age".) The Air Force was also tasked with destroying Hizbullah's rocket arsenal.

But nowadays it is not proper anymore to attack a country without a convincing reason. Already before the First Lebanon War, the Americans demanded that Israel attack only after a clear provocation that would convince the world. The necessary justification was provided at the right time by the Abu Nidal gang, which tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. In the recent case, it was decided in advance that the capture of Israeli soldiers would constitute such a provocation.

A cynic might argue that this decision turned Israeli soldiers into bait. It was known that Hizbullah wanted to capture soldiers in order to force a prisoner exchange. The regular Israeli army patrols along the border fence were, in a way, a standing invitation to Hizbullah to carry out their evil design.

THE CAPTURE of the soldier Gilad Shalit by Palestinians near the Gaza border fence turned on a red light in Israel. Olmert said in his testimony that from that moment on, he was convinced that Hizbullah was about to try to carry out a similar exploit.

If so, the prime minister should perhaps have ordered the army to halt the patrols along the northern border, or to reinforce them in a way that would deter Hizbullah. That was not done. The poor members of the fateful patrol set out on their way as to a picnic.

The same cynic might argue that Olmert and the army chiefs were interested in a pretext in order to execute their war plans. They were convinced, anyhow, that the soldiers would be brought home in a jiffy. But, as the British royal motto says, Honi soit qui mal y pense - Shame upon him who thinks ill of it.

Anyhow, Hizbullah attacked, two soldiers were captured, and the planned operation should have started rolling smoothly. But that did not happen. The war did indeed break out, as planned, but from then on almost nothing went according to plan. Consultations were hasty, the decisions confused, the operations indecisive. It now appears that the plan was not yet finalized and confirmed.

The Vinograd commission is supposed to find the answers to some tough questions: If the war was planned such a long time in advance, why was the army not ready for war? How come the army budget was reduced? How come the emergency arsenals were empty? Why were the reserve forces, which were supposed to carry out the operations on the ground, called up only when the war was already in full swing? And after they were finally deployed, why did they receive confused and contradictory orders?

All these show that Olmert and the generals were grossly incompetent in their military decision-making. But they also lacked any understanding of the international scene.

HASSAN NASRALLAH has openly admitted that he made a mistake.

He did not understand that there had been a change in Israel: instead of Sharon, an old war-horse who was not looking for action in the north, a new man had arrived, an inexperienced politician itching for war. What Nasrallah had in mind was just another round of the usual: the capture of some soldiers and a prisoner exchange. Instead, a full-blown war broke out.

But Ehud Olmert's mistake was even bigger. He was convinced that the United States would give him a blessing for the road and allow him to roam in Lebanon at will. But American interests, too, had changed.

In Lebanon, the government of Fuad Siniora has succeeded in uniting all pro-American forces. They have loyally carried out all of Washington's orders, have driven out the Syrians and have supported the investigation of Rafiq Hariri's murder, which is to provide the Americans with a pretext for a massive strike against Syria.

According to Olmert's leaks, Condoleezza Rice called him just after the outbreak of the war and conveyed to him the up-to-date American orders : it was indeed desired that Israel should deal a crushing blow to Hizbullah, the enemies of Siniora, but it was absolutely forbidden to do anything that would hurt Siniora, such as bombing Lebanese infrastructure outside Hizbullah's territory.

That emasculated the General Staff's plans. The main idea had been that if the civilian population in Lebanon was hurt sufficiently, it would put pressure on the government to act decisively against Hizbullah, enough to liquidate the organization or, at least, to disarm it. It is very doubtful whether this strategy would have succeeded if it had been carried out, but because of the American intervention it was not carried out.

Instead of the massive bombardment that would have destroyed the basic industries and facilities, Halutz had to be satisfied - after Condeleezza's phone call - with bombing the roads and bridges that serve Hizbullah and the Shiite population (including the supply lines for Syrian arms to Hizbullahland.) The damage was extensive, but not sufficient to bring Lebanon to its knees - if that was at all possible. Apart from that, the air force succeeded in destroying some of the long-range missiles, but the short-range missiles were not hit, and it was those that created havoc among the population in northern Israel.

On the ground, the operation was even more confused. Only during the last 48 hours of the war, when it was already clear that the cease-fire was about to come into force, was the major offensive, in which 33 Israeli soldiers died, set in motion. What for? In his testimony, Olmert asserts that it was necessary in order to change some points in the UN resolution in Israel's favor. We know today (as we said at the time) that these changes were worthless and they remained on paper.

THE INTERVENTION of Condoleezza Rice in the conduct of the war is interesting also in another respect. It sheds light on a question that has been engaging the experts for some time now: in the relationship between the United States and Israel, do American interests override Israeli, or is it the other way round?

This discussion came to a head when the American professors, Stephen Walt and John Mearsheimer, published their research paper, according to which Israel imposes on the United States a policy that is contrary to the American national interest. The conclusion upset many who believe the opposite: that Israel is but a small wheel in the imperial American machine. (I permitted myself to argue that both versions are right: the American dog wags its Israeli tail, and the Israeli tail wags the American dog.)

When Condoleezza Rice encouraged Israel to go to war but vetoed an essential part of the war plan, it seems that she proved the two professors wrong. True, Olmert got American permission for his war, which served American interests (the elimination of Hizbullah, which opposed the pro-American Siniora government, though it officially belonged to it), but only with severe limitations (in order not to hurt the Siniora government).

THE SAME principle is now operating on the Syrian front.

Bashar al-Assad offers Israel peace negotiations without prior conditions. This way, he hopes to avert an American attack on his country. Like the two professors, he believes that the Israeli lobby rules Washington.

Almost all the important experts in Israel are in agreement that the Syrian offer is serious. Even in "security circles" some are urging Olmert to seize the opportunity and achieve peace in the north.

But the Americans have put an absolute veto on that, which Olmert has accepted. A vital Israeli interest has been sacrificed on the American altar. Even now, when Bush is already entering into some kind of a dialog with Syria, the Americans are prohibiting us from doing the same.

Why? Very simple: the Americans are using us as a threat. They hold us on a line, like an attack dog, and tell Assad: if you don't do as we wish, we shall release the dog.

If the Americans reach an agreement with the Syrians, using this threat among others, it is they who will garner the political profits from any accord we reach with Syria in the end.

That reminds me of the events of 1973. After the October war, Israeli-Egyptian cease-fire negotiations started at km 101 (from Cairo). At some stage, General Israel Tal took over as the chief of the Israeli delegation. Much later, he told me the following story:

"At a certain point, General Gamasy, the Egyptian representative, approached and told me that Egypt was now ready to sign an agreement with us. Full of joy, I took a plane and rushed to (Prime Minister) Golda Meir, to bring her the happy news. But Golda told me to stop everything immediately. She said to me: I have promised Henry Kissinger that if we arrive at an agreement, we shall transfer the whole matter to him, and he will tie up the loose ends."

And that is what happened, of course. The negotiations at km 101 were stopped, and Kissinger took control of the scene. It was he who reached the agreement, and the US was credited with it. The Egyptians became loyal followers of the US. The Israeli-Egyptian agreement was postponed for five years. It was achieved by Anwar Sadat, who planned his historic flight to Jerusalem behind the backs of the Americans.

Now the same may happen on the Syrian front. In the best case. In the worst case, the Americans will not reach an agreement with the Syrians, they will prevent us from achieving an agreement for ourselves, and thousands of Israelis, Syrians and Lebanese will pay the price in the next war.
addRollover("language_menu_01","language_menu_01", "http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-ar.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-ar-over.gif")
addRollover("language_menu_02","language_menu_02", "http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-en-over.gif")
addRollover("language_menu_03","language_menu_03", "http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-he.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-he-over.gif")
addRollover("language_menu_04","language_menu_04", "http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-ru.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/lang-ru-over.gif")


addRollover("en_menu_01","en_menu_01","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/actions-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/actions-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_02","en_menu_02","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/aims-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/aims-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_03","en_menu_03","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/calling-card-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/calling-card-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_04","en_menu_04","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/links-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/links-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_05","en_menu_05","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/make-diff-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/make-diff-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_06","en_menu_06","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/archive-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/archive-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_07","en_menu_07","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/opinions-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/opinions-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_08","en_menu_08","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/galleries-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/galleries-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_09","en_menu_09","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/campaigns-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/campaigns-en-over.gif")
addRollover("en_menu_10","en_menu_10","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/boycott-en.gif","http://zope.gush-shalom.org/images/sidebars/boycott-en-over.gif")
Uri Avnery's Column
This Week's Message
Press Releases
Truth against truth
Video
Downloads

[Dzone]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

how dumb are you? seriously, how far gone?

this is the basis for every arguement you have on this board. NO ONE PUMPS OIL FOR FREE. in fact, everyone pays the same on the open market on a day by day basis. the only countries that dont pay for oil on the open market are kuwait, venezuala, and saudi arabia. they own thier own processing plants, pumps, rigs, and associated materials. every other country, goes to a commodeities market where oil processing companies sell it. oil processing companies are hired by either the host country or the landowner.
where the hell are we pumping oil for free?

its a shame i took you off my ignore list. you cannot possibly be this thick to ignore such huge facts such as oil being a traded commodity. please stay out. nothing you say has any current real world data viable to the arguements.

Sightless, i think the Term for Free might not be correct, whoever they are the most benefiter country form the situation and i can provide you with Fact:
1- One of the most important point of for geopolitics of Oil is controlling the oil sources with in return will be able to control the Oil prices which is very sensitive to economy as a commodity product esp for the industrial nations like US, Euro...etc
Example, every 5 dollars incline in oil prices slow the economic growth by avr 2% and the dilemma is that even when prices goes down again the revers effect dose not happen to the economy, so basically industrial nations need to control the ME mad ppl in order to stabilize oil prices and in return keep the economy growth of your nation.( this strategy was established esp after the 1970 embargo by arab oil makers within OPEC during war with Israel)
2- Iraq before the last invasion was pumping 3M barrel of oil a day, Saudi is on 5M barrel a day and they have the infrastructure to fluid the market with up to 10M barrel a day, so basically they are the leader of Oil Market ( they managed to increase their production through the 1st Gulf war with 3M extra barrel a day in nearly 1 month)Now the USA and many other countries are trying to find oil in many other locations other than the ME ( Easter Euro, Siberia, the Arctic ...etc) however the most important element in the equation is the cost of pumping the oil, so for the time being they need to get the shallow oil in Iraq, knowing that the capacity of Iraq oil can go up to 7M barrel a day, by which they can control the oil market ( they already have military basis in Saudi and they controlling the 7M barrel of oil a day in Iraq).
3- I want you to go over what happened by the US army ones they invaded Iraq, they controlled the ministry of oil, however they left the rest on the country in chiaos, they send their troops to the big oil reserves to make sure they are safe....and some time after they were trying to announce that Iraq will get out of OPEC, however the OPEC countries did not let that happen by using their production power.
So i belive it works not only in the benefit of your nations to drive SUV's & Truck with Sheep Oil, but also to keep your economy growth rates and please do not 4get the loppy of the Big Fat energy companies on the Bush admin, esp that he's an ex-oil man
P.SI have nothing against you or any other individual here on MS or even outside, so take it easy and have a good Oil day

[davetlv]

Re: WW II less than Iraq

is that this was not a spontaneous reaction to the capture of the two soldiers, but a war planned a long time ago. We said so right from the start.

The plans for attack were based on ONE thing - should hizbollah attack Israel.

They did. We responded.

Simple even for you to underfstand no dig? Or in the universe you inhabit do you think its ok for one country to be attacked , have its soldiers killed and kidnapped and not respond?

Congratulations tho dig your journey into dhimmitude is complete, your Islamofacist overloards will be proud.