Good news from Iraq!

[malayday]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

your thinking of killing everyone there? that is to solve this 'problem'
or did i misinterpret....

[KinKyJ]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Yeah, if by control, you mean keeping shit under control by killing the fucking opposition, then yes, he was keeping shit under control. Despite the fact he killed the fucking president of Iraq and usurped his power and then ruled with a completely iron fist and basically made people erect statues of him in his quote unquote honor.

Seriously move to America. BBC is biased as fuck. And in America the news media is liberal as hell. BBC is just skewed.

Yeah I agree Bush is a fucking asshole but I think that actually trying to save Iraq instead of letting it turn into a fucking mysogonist dungeon is a good idea. Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky but I can't think of anything better other than killing everyone there which is incredibly morbid...

Trading a dictator keeping muslim extremists under the thumb for a civil war and a playground for Al Quaida... Now do you call that a good deal??? If so, I'll trade your record collection for a pack of gum. Fair enough?

LMAO @ the trying to save Iraq remark!

[toasty]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky...

Steve Martin, Fozzie Bear and Howie Mandel do things that are "kinda wacky." I can think of a number of ways to describe Bush's actions -- raging incompetence, utter buffoonery, reckless bravado, myopian egoism, etc. -- but "kinda wacky" doesn't even scratch the surface.

[Miroslav]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Yeah, if by control, you mean keeping shit under control by killing the fucking opposition, then yes, he was keeping shit under control. Despite the fact he killed the fucking president of Iraq and usurped his power and then ruled with a completely iron fist and basically made people erect statues of him in his quote unquote honor.

Seriously move to America. BBC is biased as fuck. And in America the news media is liberal as hell. BBC is just skewed.

Yeah I agree Bush is a fucking asshole but I think that actually trying to save Iraq instead of letting it turn into a fucking mysogonist dungeon is a good idea. Sure Bush went about it kinda wacky but I can't think of anything better other than killing everyone there which is incredibly morbid...

A sad reality is that there are plenty of places in the world that need "saving", and you can't go in and save them. Look at most of the African continent. If the U.S. went in there and overthrew every dictator, occupied the country, and attempted to install a democratic government, what do you think would happen?

Do you think the U.S. could handle the strain?
Do you think that the bloodshed would stop and people there would cooperate in forming a democracy?
Do you think that the people in those nations would like the U.S. being there and "helping" them?
Do you think the rest of the world - nations and terrorists alike - would support what the U.S. was doing?

The correct answer to all of the above is no. Going into countries and "fixing" them just cuz their leaders suck is not a sustainable strategy. Maybe if they overstep their bounds and blitzkrieg Poland...but that's a whole different story.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

I can think of a number of ways to describe Bush's actions -- raging incompetence, utter buffoonery, reckless bravado, myopian egoism, etc. -- but "kinda wacky" doesn't even scratch the surface.

nicely put!

[WaveSculptor]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Let's face it, the complete history behind this simply does not enter the public arena. Every time we look under the rug we find a whole stack of older, dirtier rugs beneath it... Most of you probably know that we gave the Saudis & Afghanis military and financial support in the late years of the cold war. Over the following decade, the soviets waged an imprudent war in the region that gradually weakened them to the point of collapse. Unfortunately, Bin Laden continued to receive at least $20Million a year from the CIA for several years after he had stopped fighting communism and had turned his attention to the looming threat of American economic imperialism. And of course that was around the same time that the Bin Laden family financed the 'Arbusto' Oil/Energy company that our minority elected president subsequently ran into the ground.

The point is, almost all of what we see and hear on the news (in ANY country) is propaganda intended to sway public opinion in favor of upcoming political initiatives. I surely don't have to remind anyone that the media in the states is privately owned, and the owners have their own political agendas as well. We don't hear about the back-scratching that goes on internationally among powerful families like the Bush's and Bin Laden's until well after the fact (or invasion as the case may be).

Is all of that bad? Truthfully I'm not sure, I mean it did win the cold war... but because of its clandestined tinkering with foreign politics (as well as flagrant war crimes and blatant civil rights violations), the United States no longer stands as the beacon of liberty and justice it once represented to the oppressed and downtrodden throughout the world. That will have a tremendous cost in terms of credibility,
which will likely take several administrations to repair.

Hopefully that'll give all the Faux news viewers a new angle to look at the war on terror from... and a realization that the US doesn't actually care about the tyranical dictators running the third world, since many of them were installed by us to begin with. What's in the best 'National Interest' as the popular term is these days, is to dismantle the economic and industrial capabilities of any nation that might one day pose a threat to our Unilateral policy-making, or better yet pit several of them against one another. The political realities are so incompatible with the self-righteous ideological fluff that we Americans are institutionally trained to believe from a very young age, that people dismiss the possibility and assume it really is a battle between good and evil... wake tf up please.

Sorry, I realize I barely touched on the Iraq situation, but neither did the president when convincing the public we needed to invade. All of the significant 'intelligence' they provided about WMD programs turned out to be alarmist nonsense (chem/bio weapons perhaps but that had nothing to do with 9/11, nor did Hussein). Hopefully I can go into greater detail in a later post.

Just because we're an ocean away doesn't mean the news is a damn soap opera, there are real people dying there every day, including innocent men, women and children...what will the survivors think of us? Will the United States be typecast on the global stage? Time will tell, but to the rest of the world: Americans are not all this way. The political experiment called 'America' provides glimpses into the best and worst of human potential, and most of us wrestle with that duality within ourselves on a regular basis. It is a human trait, not solely an American one.

Americans, stop marginalizing and trivializing other cultures and political systems.
World, I'm trying over here, don't generalize Americans as brainwashed Imperialists despite the evidence already presented in this thread.

-bt

[KinKyJ]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^ now that's what I call the best first post ever!

[KinKyJ]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

I normally post these in the nonsense thread, but today Cyanide&Hapiness actually belongs here I think...

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

Americans, stop marginalizing and trivializing other cultures and political systems.
World, I'm trying over here, don't generalize Americans as brainwashed Imperialists despite the evidence already presented in this thread.

-bt

did you find your studio equiptment yet?

[threehills]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

One american's viewpoint:

Regardless of whether going into Iraq was the right or wrong thing to do at the time...we had a responsibility to the Iraqi people to give them a better standard of life. This is a responsibility to which we have utterly failed. Such basic necessities, that were available to most prior to the invasion, such as electricity and infrastructure, are still not a regular part of daily life in iraq. The quality of life for the regular iraqi is certainly sub standard to where it was before the invasion, several years later. While Saddam may have ruled with an Iron first, at least people were able to meet the basic tenets of "normal" living. Ie, they didn't have to worry that their neighbors might storm their house and execute them in their beds. People who are happy with their way of life, who have shelter, food, opportunties to work, move about and live in safety don't readily go around killing each other. It's our failure as a country to provide these basic tenets of normal life to the Iraqi people that is largely responsible for the troubles we now see. For this I am asahmed to be american.

I believe that americans have prided themselves over the past generations on that fact that others could turn to us in times of need. But on these past occasions, we helped those who were in jeapordy of losing the prinicples that we as a nation hold most dear, or at least used to, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. And in the past, we waited until we were asked for help, when the poeple of a country cried out for assistance (read WWI and WWII). I don't remeber anyone asking us to invade Iraq. In fact , it is these very three ideals, the ones we hold above all else, that we are actively depriving from the Iraqi people. We have fucked it up to the point that there is no option but for things to get worse. Its too late for us the be the good guys anymore.

We as a country rebelled against the British for far less than what we have inflicted upon the Iraqi people. It's this individual American's opinion that the only way for Iraq to survive is for the people to unite against us and forcefully drive us from their country. Us just leaving will clearly sink the country into civil war. But if they unite against us, rally together in achieving a common goal, the country might be saved.

[Bululu]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.

[toasty]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

We as a country rebelled against the British for far less than what we have inflicted upon the Iraqi people. It's this individual American's opinion that the only way for Iraq to survive is for the people to unite against us and forcefully drive us from their country. Us just leaving will clearly sink the country into civil war. But if they unite against us, rally together in achieving a common goal, the country might be saved.

I can tell that your thoughts come from a good place. With that said, I have a few thoughts...

1. They are already embroiled in a civil war. Whether we stay or go isn't going to change that. Shias are fighting Sunnis, Sunnis are fighting Shias, and perhaps most importantly, both groups are targeting us. I haven't the foggiest what our end game even is any more. Stay or go, we're now at a point where the Iraqis clearly have to figure this out for themselves. There's nothing more we can do.

2. I don't think we have an obligation to serve as targets for the Iraqis until they "rally together" and experience the good feeling of forcibly kicking us out of their country.

3. I don't think the Sunnis and Shias owe any allegiance to Iraq whatsoever, nor do I think they have any interest in uniting for any purpose.

[88Mariner]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.

america now exports security? and it generally goes to the highest bidder?

[threehills]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

^^^^ Did the Iraqi people ask you to give them that ????? did tyhey actually came and asked the AMerican governement to do that ???? why didn't your governement go somewhere else where people are in deeper shit ?? Africa ??? South East Asia ( Burma for example )??? Tibet where a culture is being erased by the Chinese governement ) ???? Stop trying to find excuses for this murderous and evil envasion pleasee, hundreds of thousdans of people died until now and if you keep up with this reasinong and wasting time to find excuses hundreds of thousands will die also , 4.5 Million people are refugees because of your dirty war, women that were students in Iraqi universities are prostituting in neighbouring countries, and you are telling me we had to give Iraqi people their freedom, fuck that freedom.

Clearly you missed my point. I tried to say that the Iraqi people didn't ask for our "help" and that they were much better off pre invasion, esentially what you are saying but without all the question marks and arm flailing.

[threehills]

Re: Good news from Iraq!

I can tell that your thoughts come from a good place. With that said, I have a few thoughts...

1. They are already embroiled in a civil war. Whether we stay or go isn't going to change that. Shias are fighting Sunnis, Sunnis are fighting Shias, and perhaps most importantly, both groups are targeting us. I haven't the foggiest what our end game even is any more. Stay or go, we're now at a point where the Iraqis clearly have to figure this out for themselves. There's nothing more we can do.

Agreed, I don't know what can possibly be done to remedy the situation at this point.

2. I don't think we have an obligation to serve as targets for the Iraqis until they "rally together" and experience the good feeling of forcibly kicking us out of their country.

I don't think we have an obligation either by any means nor do I think it will ever happen, but nothing unites like a common hatred. IE, the whole country hoping to see the Yankee's lose.

3. I don't think the Sunnis and Shias owe any allegiance to Iraq whatsoever, nor do I think they have any interest in uniting for any purpose.

Also agreed. The one solution that does seem to make some sense, at least to me, is dividing iraq into smaller countries, each group having their "share". I believe Sightless outlined this whole plan in another post. Apparently this is how they mediated the problem is Yugoslavia. Forgive me if thats the wrong country.