Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

[res0nat0r]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

talk about respect? when millions are dying from both sides in this lame ass war .. it's just critical sarcasm I have a cousin who is in Iraq right now you moron.

looks like you get the o'reilly factor down there in mexico. millions huh?

[toasty]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

Back on point, I gather that the idea of benchmarks is being discussed as a compromise. Seems like a reasonable deal to me. Congress basically says, "Look, we'll continue to fund your war, but the Iraqis have to start making some progress and demonstrate that they are interested in taking their country back or we're out of here." Bush always talks about all the progress we're making, so let's see it -- put up or shut up, IMO...

[res0nat0r]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

^^you notice right after the bill was vetoed and the override failed that pelosi et al was right at bushes side stating that they are ready to compromise. i think the timelines setup is what is going to go forward, a hard set date is going to be bad for everyone.

i believe the whole bill was just to show officially that the majority of american people are supposed to be against the war.

[88Mariner]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

I was on board with this idea for a long time. In the fairly recent past, though, I've begun to develop the opinion that Iraq is going to be fucked regardless of whether we stay or go. There's already a massive civil war, and I don't even know who's side we're on any more. Far as I can tell, the only thing the Shias and Sunnis can agree on is that killing us is a good idea.

We've been trying to rebuild the country with the assistance of the Iraqis for over 4 years now, and it simply hasn't worked. I think it's time to get the hell out of there and let them figure this out for themselves. It's going to be a complete clusterfuck either way, and I guess I prefer the clusterfuck that has less troops dying.

No easy answers. It's a mess regardless.

quite, quite true. but i disagree with you on the point that we need to pull out. our presence, in my opinion, depresses the number of attacks. If the iraqi's aren't doing anything about thier country now, they won't do anything for themselves in the future that would forge a stronger government. IMO, if we left, and we take your theory that all the Sunni's and Shiite's can agree on is killing pro-Democratic Iraq, then I believe Iraq would simply be bought out by the highest bidder. The Saudi's? Syria? Or worse... Then what?

Interesting idea comes to mind.... if we leave now... does the probability of us returning to Iraq as a military force, say twenty years from now, increase? or decrease....>?

[subterFUSE]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

quite, quite true. but i disagree with you on the point that we need to pull out. our presence, in my opinion, depresses the number of attacks. If the iraqi's aren't doing anything about thier country now, they won't do anything for themselves in the future that would forge a stronger government. IMO, if we left, and we take your theory that all the Sunni's and Shiite's can agree on is killing pro-Democratic Iraq, then I believe Iraq would simply be bought out by the highest bidder. The Saudi's? Syria? Or worse... Then what?

Interesting idea comes to mind.... if we leave now... does the probability of us returning to Iraq as a military force, say twenty years from now, increase? or decrease....>?

It absolutely increases. But it won't take 20 years for us to have to return. It would be more like 3-4 years, tops.

[toasty]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

Interesting idea comes to mind.... if we leave now... does the probability of us returning to Iraq as a military force, say twenty years from now, increase? or decrease....>?

Wide open question, IMO. Personally, I think it's probably more likely that we'd have to return at some point if we left now, but I don't think that's a foregone conclusion.

Even assuming that to be the case, though, I don't think it follows that we should stay in there now for that reason. Sometimes you have to step away from the sandbox for few minutes and let the kids work things out themselves before stepping back in.

I think of it the same way I think of my dogs, to some extent. I realize that probably seems like a ridiculous analogy, but hear me out. We have two very energetic dogs -- a Boston Terrier that we've had a little over 3 years, and a Yorkie that we got right around New Years. When the Yorkie was introduced to the fold, there was a period where they just had to work out who the alpha dog was. They wrestled, they growled, they peed on various things, they humped each other, etc. We would step in if they got really aggressive, but by and large we let them do their thing. Now, they're past that and have learned how to live together, and all is well. If we had tried to pull them apart every time they did any of that, though, we'd probably still be having problems.

Am I really comparing the Sunnis and Shias to dogs? Do I think that a few months after we leave, the Shias are going to be curling up against the Sunnis by the fireplace, or that the Sunnis are going to be licking the Shias faces? Of course not. I do think, though, that there are times when it makes sense to step out of the fray for a bit and let the chips fall where they may. We're tried separating these folks for 4 years, though, and it hasn't worked -- maybe we just need to give them an opportunity to establish their own hierarchy so there will at least be enough stability that we'll know what we're up against, and then proceed accordingly, whether that means diplomacy, military action, whatever.

Just my thoughts as of 10:38 am CDT, May 4, 2007, and subject to change.

[apollo_1444]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

looks like you get the o'reilly factor down there in mexico. millions huh?

I think he is back now, if so i'm glad, on the other hand thats what he wanted to do when he was a kid being on the army and shit.

[JK224]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

I loathe this president, he's put the US in quite the predicament. Troops shouldn't have even gone over there, there would have been no problem.

[res0nat0r]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

unfortunately in the US, war being declared against another country doesnt rest in the hands of one man.

[clintlove]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

When is the world gonna realized that Bush and his brother fixed the election recount in Florida so he could stay in office and play a lead role in 911. We need to burn this fucker at the stake! Oil in the Middle East is not worth the death and fear he has caused.

[WaveSculptor]

Re: Bush Vetoes War-Spending Bill

There is also information coming to light about the Ohio voting machines (made by Diebold) that show evidence of being tampered with, for example there are entire sections of votes that somehow no longer show the time the vote was cast...and wouldn't you know it, when the contract to supply those machines was up for grabs in 2003, the president of Diebold wrote in a letter that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year." This would be totally unbelievable if we hadn't already heard about Florida.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm