Huge Sale!!!

[toasty]

Imagine for a moment that a store were to take all of their prices and double them. The next day, they have a 50% off sale and market the hell out of it, peddling it as a boon for consumers. Wouldn't that offend your intelligence?

That's pretty much what this troop drawdown feels like. A few morons notwithstanding, the majority of the public has been clamoring for a withdrawl of some of our troops for many, many months. Notwithstanding the enormous support for that idea, we nevertheless authorized a temporary increase in troops, i.e., the "surge," back in March. It bears highlighting the fact that by its very nature, the surge was supposed to be (or was at least marketed as) temporary.

Back to present day, Bush finally agrees to a drawdown -- to pre-surge numbers, by the middle of next summer. Whether you believe that the surge is really working or that Bush is finally relenting to pressure is unimportant -- the point is that the end result of all of this is to put us in the very same situation back when Bush pleaded to give him one more chance, with the surge.

There is little question now that the next president will inherit this war. Anyone else feel like Bush is just trying to buy time so he won't have to be the one that orders the withdrawl?

Soldiers lives > Bush's legacy. That's the way it ought to be, anyway.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

Cannon meat. That's the way it is.

I've said it once and I'll say it again: the next Presidency is without any doubt the shitiest job in the world...

Btw, Bush's legacy... I don't think a troop withdrawal would change anything about Bush's place in history.

[rubyraks]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

There is little question now that the next president will inherit this war. Anyone else feel like Bush is just trying to buy time so he won't have to be the one that orders the withdrawl?

Is there any denying that's what he's up to? It's been pretty damn obvious for at least the last year now.

[88Mariner]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

I don't think that's a just comparison. monetary value versus manpower.... adding more troops inevitably means you're going to accomplish more, no? just by doubling the price of an item doesn't double the intrinsic value of that item.

If our army was fully robotic, that is, no human at risk, would we be saying "build more" or "remove more"?

I"m not saying that humans have the same value as a robot, human life is always the highest value...but for the purposes of highliting the difference between dollar-value and value of manpower....

[toasty]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

adding more troops inevitably means you're going to accomplish more, no?

Not inevitably, no. The change in Anbar was the result of having less US troops in the mix, and was put in motion before the surge began. Check out this passage from an article from Time in December 2006, well before the surge:

It's different in Anbar province, where the presence of American troops on the streets of places like Ramadi actually prompts violence rather than heading it off. Insurgents and fighters from al-Qaeda in Iraq regularly strike U.S. forces in Anbar with small arms, massive roadside bombs and mortars that carry blasts comparable to heavy artillery. Militants come to the area from surrounding countries and elsewhere in Iraq specifically for a chance to confront U.S. troops, which is part of the reason the insurgency persists. It's a dilemma familiar to counterinsurgency strategists: much of the fighting in Ramadi and other places continues because of the American presence, not in spite of it. U.S. commanders tasked with clearing Ramadi, the latest insurgent hub in Anbar Province, aren't looking to assault the city with U.S. troops. They want local security forces instead to retake the city gradually. And in recent months a group of tribal leaders in Anbar Province has been working with U.S. forces in that effort, forming a coalition of sheiks who have sent hundreds of their followers to join the Ramadi police force as well as the Iraqi army.

The Ramadi strategy, which in essence replaces U.S. troops with Iraqis even as the fight unfolds, shows some early signs of success. Despite bursts of fighting in Ramadi almost daily, schools are opening, and Iraqi police are circulating on their own in neighborhoods that were previously no-go areas.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1571784,00.html

We've thankfully seen the success in Anbar continue since that article was written. The irony, of course, is that progress in Anbar is being used to sell the success of the surge, when the reality is that the two are completely unrelated.

If our army was fully robotic, that is, no human at risk, would we be saying "build more" or "remove more"?

I"m not saying that humans have the same value as a robot, human life is always the highest value...but for the purposes of highliting the difference between dollar-value and value of manpower....

I literally haven't got the foggiest what you're talking about here. Robotic army? Sounds like you've been reading too much Bradbury. I don't get the analogy at all.

My point, though, has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of human life vs androids, it has to do with the fact that it is a complete snowjob. A removal of temporary troops is just that, it is not a withdrawl. If he was lying when he initially suggested that the surge troops would be on a short-term basis and he actually intended them to be there indefinitely, I suppose this would count as a drawdown.

[88Mariner]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

ok. you suppose this would be a drawdown. what else is there to argue: that Bush is still lying? We've already argued and settled this in another thread, no? (res judicata comes to mind)

[toasty]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

ok. you suppose this would be a drawdown. what else is there to argue: that Bush is still lying? We've already argued and settled this in another thread, no? (res judicata comes to mind)

We have? Which thread?

And I'm not saying this is a drawdown at all. I'm saying Bush is spinning it as such, but it's not. That's kinda the point. Am I missing something? I'm not understanding you at all today. probably best that it's Friday and I'll have a couple days break before doing any heavy lifting at work again.

[33L]

Re: Huge Sale!!!

I'm not following him (88Mariner) either. Troop surge, troop withdrawal. It's all a bunch of bullshit. This war has been fucked from the beginning, and there are no polemics which can erase that fact. And Bush's legacy is also fucked, although I truly believe he has no idea that he will be seen as one of the worst presidents ever. He truly believes that at some point everyone will "see the light".

Fuck Bush.

End rant.