Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

[miketpoto]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

omfg...

this kid azzam from my office , who normally is pretty educated on muslim topics, and fairly realistic, jsut said, in no jocular manner...

"but iran doesnt have any gays. in the koran, they say to throw them off the mountain."

in the most deadpan,seriuos manner, like it was fact.

What a sand nigger...

[toasty]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

This shows how whacky the left wing is. It makes no sense to invite a huge sponsor of terrorism killing our troops in Iraq to speak and not allow military recruiters from your own country on campus.

Well, don't mistake this for agreeing with Ahmadinejad, but to say that he is "a huge sponsor of terrorism killing our troops in Iraq" either mixes two unrelated things or is incorrect. Iran is a sponsor of terrorism, but the terrorists it supports are affiliated with Hezbollah and probably Hamas who want to see Israel wiped off the map. Iran is a Shia-controlled state, but Al Qaeda is Sunni, so Iran isn't supporting Al Qaeda, that's for sure. It isn't the terrorist groups it supports that we're fighting in Iraq.

Iran probably is killing our troops in Iraq, though, but through its affiliation with Shia Death Squads who want Iraq to be a Shia-controlled state. Whether they constitute "terrorists" or something else is probably a fair question for debate, but the suggestion that Iran is sponsoring a terrorist organization whose primary goal is the killing of Americans is not accurate.

Again, not defending Ahmadinejad. FFS, the guy claims there are no gay people in Iran, denies the holocaust, and is clearly a nutjob. I guess my point is that part of the reason we're in the mess we're in now is because Bush/Cheney/Rummy have propagated this notion that anyone that disagrees with the US can all be appropriately lumped together as "terrorists" and addressed with a unitary policy of either (1) bombing them, or (2) ignoring them. We'd be in a much different place if someone would have taken the time to understand the motivation of the different groups that dislike the US and deal with them accordingly, rather than clinging to this overly-simplistic notion that it's black and white and they can all be dealt with in the same way.

Finally, I want to underscore that I'm not suggesting that we ought to embrace Ahmadinejad or that we shouldn't be concerned about him. If we ever want to succeed, though, we have to get past this notion that we can deal with other nations of the world with whom we disagree with this "one size fits all" strategy, which more often than not includes ignoring the problem and refusing any sort of dialog. Look at North Korea -- the problem just got worse while it was ignored, and it was only after agreeing to discussions that any progress was made.

[toasty]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

I would add that although it probably looks like I'm splitting hairs in the post above, to the extent that suggestions that Iran is "a huge sponsor of terrorism killing our troops in Iraq" is used as justification for war against Iran -- which sounds very similar to one of the rationales we were given for the Iraq invasion -- we ought to take a hard look at exactly what it is that Iran is doing.

[superdave]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

I would add that although it probably looks like I'm splitting hairs in the post above, to the extent that suggestions that Iran is "a huge sponsor of terrorism killing our troops in Iraq" is used as justification for war against Iran -- which sounds very similar to one of the rationales we were given for the Iraq invasion -- we ought to take a hard look at exactly what it is that Iran is doing.

My point was simply don't allow him to speak at a university in America. You and others try to turn this into a war debate. We're not at war with Iran or Iraq. The war in Iraq is amongst the different ethnic groups there.

If we agree that he's a bad guy, then don't let him come here to speak. Do you actually agree with Columbia university's decision to invite him to speak?

The liberals hatred of Bush is greater than the enemy itself. The old saying goes "Is the enemy of my enemy my friend"? With liberals, Bush is the bigger enemy at this point. Therefore, the left wing and Islamic terrorists are allies for now.

[Jenks]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

the left wing and Islamic terrorists are allies for now.

[Miroslav]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

Just because we may not agree with his remarks, it does not mean his remarks are necessarily wrong. It is all about perspective and interpretation... the classic scenario where you cannot translate a saying in one language or culture into another with high fidelity (e.g. what the heck does "Sacre Bleu" in French translate to in English).

He's like Dr Evil... simply misunderstood.

And sometimes it helps to have a backbone of some kind.

Ever read something in your history book about "Hitler" and "appeasement" in the 1930s? Guess what, it did not work out so well.

I'm not saying we have to go to war with the guy - hopefully not. But I don't think he is "simply misunderstood" and we are right to be wary of him.

[Miroslav]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

As I was driving home just now, I also had the thought:

I'm cool with Mr. Ahmadinejad coming over here and benefitting from our well established heritage of being able to speak one's mind in an open forum. It's peachy that he can do that...unlike the people in his own country who get beaten, imprisoned, or worse if they try to express whatever they want.

[toasty]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

We're not at war with Iran

Yet. As I recall from another thread, you seem to think that Bush pushing us into war with Iran is impossible. If you do think that, I submit that you haven't been paying attention for the last 6 and a half years. We're talking about a guy that doesn't give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks of his decisions, and if he thinks that Iran needs to be attacked, I suspect that it will be. He may technically be in lame duck mode, but he still seems to be getting what he wants, so those that think that he can't or won't fuck things up any more than he already has before he leaves office aren't seeing the big picture.

...and that's why statements like the one you made earlier require correction, because they form the underpinnings of the case for war with Iran that's being built. Hell, if you believe the stories out of Iraq, we're already in a de facto war with Iran, we're just fighting them in Iraq.

If we agree that he's a bad guy, then don't let him come here to speak. Do you actually agree with Columbia university's decision to invite him to speak?

I could really care less if he's invited to speak or not. What's the concern? That he's going to sway people? The guy's a lunatic, and all the coverage of the event seems to highlight that. Plus, it's not like Columbia rolled out the red carpet for him -- he got a pretty good dressing down before he even began speaking.

Fact is, whether we like it or not, he's a newsworthy figure. If Columbia wants to allow him to speak, that's its prerogative.

[Bululu]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

hehehe the pre war comments lets bomb Iran they don't allow and kill gays, lets save the poor faggots.
PS: what are your troops doing in Iaq in the first place??? anyone gave you the authority to go there??

[WaveSculptor]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

Can someone clear something up for me...

What is terrorism exactly?

Is it the exact same thing that our military and intelligence agencies have been doing all over the world throughout the entire span of their existence?

Does it include unprovoked attacks on civilian populations, like our aerial bombardment of Panama on December 20, 1989?

How about the atomic bombing of not one, but two Japanese cities populated with noncombatants during WWII?

Perhaps it involves the assassination of uncooperative leaders like Omar Torrijos and Jaime Roldos of Panama and Ecuador, who died in a helicopter crash and an airplane explosion respectively, while attempting to liberate their impoverished citizens from monopolistic US interests?

Is it like saying that the right to due process is extended only to those living within our borders? Or justifying heinous human rights violations with arbitrary rules like "They must be uniformed combatants fighting on behalf of a nation-state in order to be protected under POW treaties?"

We live in an age of terror, alright. For those who can't get enough of this absurd war on terror, the terror is in your own heads, and Iran's president is not the one who put it there. For the future of our country and the world, and for the sake of humanity, I urge you to turn off the news and read a book.

[AntonyM]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

Wow, it good to finally some heated discussion in this section. Not sure his speech has done anymore to enhance his image in the states. The Iranian president has used the global system to his advantage and add to that Bush is not the most politically savvy of global leaders, who could find ways leverage the situation into his favor. Iran has oil, at the end of the day it something China and Russia, even some of the Western countries won,t forget,the saber rattling days of US cowboy like behavior are not in fashion in the global community, yet if this Iran situation escalates into some pre WWII flashback, the US role as world police will be expected. Until then, let's get our own shit straight in this significantlly divided United States.

[superdave]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

Yet. As I recall from another thread, you seem to think that Bush pushing us into war with Iran is impossible. If you do think that, I submit that you haven't been paying attention for the last 6 and a half years. We're talking about a guy that doesn't give a rat's ass what anyone else thinks of his decisions, and if he thinks that Iran needs to be attacked, I suspect that it will be. He may technically be in lame duck mode, but he still seems to be getting what he wants, so those that think that he can't or won't fuck things up any more than he already has before he leaves office aren't seeing the big picture.

...and that's why statements like the one you made earlier require correction, because they form the underpinnings of the case for war with Iran that's being built. Hell, if you believe the stories out of Iraq, we're already in a de facto war with Iran, we're just fighting them in Iraq.
.

I don't recall ever saying war was impossible with Iran. I said it was highly unlikely given our circumstances in Iraq. I've heard Bush himself say that he would not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon. If Iran continues to push towards obtaining a nuclear weapon, that could cause us to go to war. And, yes, I have been paying attention. So no correction is needed.

[miketpoto]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

hehehe the pre war comments lets bomb Iran they don't allow and kill gays, lets save the poor faggots.
PS: what are your troops doing in Iaq in the first place??? anyone gave you the authority to go there??

Die in a fire

[toasty]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

I don't recall ever saying war was impossible with Iran. I said it was highly unlikely given our circumstances in Iraq. I've heard Bush himself say that he would not allow Iran to have a nuclear weapon. If Iran continues to push towards obtaining a nuclear weapon, that could cause us to go to war. And, yes, I have been paying attention. So no correction is needed.

Alright, looking back at that other thread, perhaps "impossible" is a bit of an overstatement. Maybe correction isn't required as to you personally, but we all sat back and let people make similar assumptions about Iraq, and the failure to challenge them is part of what led us to the worst foreign policy mistake in our lifetime. It's high time we began asking for some proof rather than just taking these things at face value.

For example, to play devil's advocate, what exactly is the proof that Iran is arming Shia militants? Is it that they have Iranian-made weapons? You know what other country manufactured weapons used by the Shia militias? It should come as no shock to anyone that they are also using some US weaponry. Does that mean that we're funding terrorists? Should we invade ourselves? Of course not, and the reality is that Iran probably is playing a role in what's going on in Iraq, but after the clusterfuck that is Iraq, we ought to insist upon better evidence than overly simplistic notion that "We're seeing Iranian weapons, so Iran must be involved." Has Iraq taught us nothing?

Regardless, I have yet to see anyone offer any substantive rebuttal to my initial comment, or seen any further support for the statement that Ahmadinejad is "a huge sponsor of terrorism killing our troops in Iraq." I still maintain that it draws a connection between two unconnected things. So humor me on my devil's advocate role here for a moment and explain to me how that's wrong.

[davetlv]

Re: Iranian President speaks at Columbia Univ.

Die in a fire

Bad form old chap, really, as a fellow card carrying member of the up-hill miners club I'm shocked that thats the best you could come up with!