Things younger than John Mccain!!

[toasty]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

part of the problem is that even bothering to respond to such BS as if we were having a substantive discussion would give undue credence to it. I think at times we do ourselves a disservice by responding to asinine points as if they have any legitimacy or are worthy of real discourse. Try reframing the question in a less incendiary way, that has some meat on the bones and isn't just a repetition of right wing fear-mongering, and maybe we can have a real discussion.

[shosh]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

right wing fear-mongering? BS?
ok so don't respond to that, but respond to this: are you ok with the closest people to the president desecrating our country? yes i am referring to things said by his pastor and his wife. because although some people downplay their importance, i cant understand how someone who is patriotic (to not be confused with extremist) would want such a person to lead our country. those things are facts, recorded, and replayed over and over again. Are you ok with that? Or are you going to use the excuse that "he didnt say those things?" Because although he didnt he was always around them and he doesn't have that much experience in politics to predict his strong character. So I do believe the he has been influenced by such thoughts and positions.
What about the 2nd ammendment? What about the corruption scandal in Chicago with which he is affiliated? Surely Jenks being from St Louis must know tons about it.

And ultimately why would you vote for Obama?

[toasty]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

All of this "Obama is unpatriotic" talk is just madness. Do you think he's a closeted Muslim extremist, too? Do you believe that he refuses to say the pledge of allegiance? Because those things are demonstrably false, yet they continue to make the rounds on email threads every so often.

Are you pissed that he only occasionally wears a flag pin? Do you wear a flag pin? Have you noticed that the people that are most critical of him for not wearing a flag pin don't wear one every day, either?

And isn't it telling that in its desperate attempt to smear Obama, the vaunted Republican Attack Machine can only manage these "guilt by association" arguments? In what way is he "affiliated" with a corruption investigation? What difference does it make if he served on a board with William Ayers? Is he required to vet every person he comes into contact with on the off chance he ever decides to run for President? Like "Before I agree to correspond with you, I need to interview and run background checks on you." This is not the Kevin Bacon Game, FFS, and the RNM's ability to connect Obama with other people doesn't mean shit.

The Reverend Wright thing wasn't great for Obama, no question. I thought he ultimately handled the situation well, though. If we're going to play this "everything anyone who supports you or whom you support is imputed to you" game, though, why aren't people asking the same questions about Rev. Hagee, whose endorsement McCain actively sought? That dude has said some fucked up shit that is offensive to most Americans, and he's said those things very recently. How about McCain's association with George W. Bush? That ought to give people some pause.

And why vote for Obama? In the interest of keeping it quick, I'll just lay out the big ones:
1. He'll get us out of Iraq
2. He believes in increased transparency and the limitation of lobbyist influence in government generally, and has backed that belief up with legislation directed to that goal
3. He gives us the best chance of restoring our position in the world
4. His positions on most issues align with mine (YMMV)

What the hell are you talking about re the 2nd Amendment, btw?

[toasty]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

What the hell are you talking about re the 2nd Amendment, btw?

I just stumbled upon an article that touches upon his view on guns. From a campaign appearance literally hours before the "bitter" comments were made:

"We need sensible gun laws," said the Senator. "I just got back from Montana where just about everyone has guns. In that culture, fathers and sons bond over hunting. You can't take that away from rural America. But the inner city is different, and we should tighten the laws on gun purchases and close the loopholes in gun show sales to unscrupulous buyers. The gun control people and the right to bear arms people are talking past each other about disconnected topics."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/05/13/before-bitter-gate-what-o_n_101493.html

My personal take on guns is this: I'm not personally a hunter, but I have no problem with sportsmen owning guns. I also think that people have the right to own guns for their own personal protection, and although I don't own a handgun, it has crossed my mind to get one. Really, I don't have a problem with people owning guns for really any reason at all. With that being the case, though, I don't find anything problematic about what Obama said whatsoever. Bounds of reason.

[shosh]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

First, let me state that I am not a democrat nor a republican. I agree and disagree with things on both sides. I personally cannot trust anyone in politics, but maybe that is derived from me having been grown up in a communist regime.
No I did not refer to the Muslim issue, the pledge of allegiance, the pin or any stupid issues. Although I do have an issue with him disrespecting the national anthem (true and proven). But mostly what I have problems with is that he was associated with and supported Rev. Wright. Sure, McCain was endorsed bu Hagee and another Rev (forgot his name) and they have made comments that were offensive, BUT they were not his reverends, those to whom he listened to for 15-20 years, who were his confindants, and were close to him and his family (as stated by Obama). Obama handled it well? I think he handled it as a politician; at first he stood by him and backed away from the actual comments, but of course as he continued to get criticized he denounced him. Did he do it because he didnt agree with him (he would have done so years ago) or because it was hurting his campaign. I vote for the latter. My main issue with Wright and Mrs. Obama is the distasteful things they said about our country: that they hate it and they are not proud of it. Seriously, gtfo of the country if you dont like it. Go live somewhere else where you are proud of it. The corruption scandal i am referring to is not with William Ayers, but that with Antoin "Tony" Rezko. If you're not familiar with it, let me know and I'll get you some links. There is a lot of shady stuff Rezko did and him and Obama essentially scratched each other backs. This trial is still pending though.
As far as McCain's association with Bush, haha.
Obama will get us out of Iraq. Is that the best thing? I'm not sold on it. I'm also not sold on staying in Iraq. I think either way it's going to be a lose-lose situation. My opinions on this matter are based on first-hand accounts from Iraq, not just the media.
Your 2nd issue contradicts directly is relationship with Rezko. So he has passed some legislation? Well he has also been influenced by lobbyists. What would happen remains to be seen.
Why is our position in the world cause of so much concern? Short of us shaking hands with Al-Qaeda and Kim Jong Ill, things wont change. The whole world "hates" us but still everyone wants to live here and be like US. They complain about torture and the Geneva Convention? America Fuck Yeah! (jk) I dont think terrorists have rights and the same goes for anyone who supports or aides them. I personally wish we could act like the Mossad, no questions or restraints. How can someone who kills people in that manner can expect to be treated fairly. Such person didnt treat anyone else with the same luxury so none should be awarded to them. Yes, i have the same opinion for rapists, molesters, and murderers.
Regarding the 2nd amendment: Obama stated that he believe states and local jurisdictions should have the right to implement gun laws (ie he supports the DC ban on handguns). I guess the portion in the Constitution that says this right should not be infringed upon doesn't apply to Obama's logic. He is also supportive on Chicago's ban and the ban they are promoting against assault rifles in IL.

EDIT: Just saw your post above. The constitution guarantees everyone the right to lawfully bear arms, and is not dependent on where you live. Furthermore, let's look at the crime rates in DC and Chicago where guns are banned. Any sane, reasonable person can figure out that if you intend on harming someone you can always get a gun, illegally.

[subterFUSE]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

I am a pretty hardline conservative guy, at least by any measure on a forum like this one. But I do have to side with Toasty on this one, as much as it pains me. heh Not on the policy issues, but on the level of discourse.

I certainly don't want to see Obama as president, but wouldn't venture so far as to say he hates the country. I think that just crosses a boundary of rational discourse, and makes the accuser sound petty, or even ignorant. It doesn't help my side, that's for sure.

[shosh]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

I am a pretty hardline conservative guy, at least by any measure on a forum like this one. But I do have to side with Toasty on this one, as much as it pains me. heh

I certainly don't want to see Obama as president, but wouldn't venture so far as to say he hates the country. I think that just crosses a boundary of rational discourse, and makes the accuser sound petty, or even ignorant. It doesn't help my side, that's for sure.

I never said HE hates the country, but doesnt it tell you something when those closest to him (his wife and his pastor for umpteen years) make those kind of remarks or say those kind of things? It will translate somehow into his actions and decisions imo

And again, i think this election sucks. We dont have anyone really worth voting for. McCain - old and always looking for power (some say he is more liberal than most liberals), Clintons (good god one wasnt good enough?), and Obama (ive said enough). Yes, Ron Paul supporter

[Jenks]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

There is so much more wrong with your arguments above, but it's a little difficult to argue with your logic because you're making some generalizations and have some ideas that are all over the freaking place, and frankly are a bit whacky. Arguing some of the points above with you would be like trying to untangle that big ball of christmas lights you pull out of the attic a few days before christmas to decorate your tree. Pull one knot, it creates another not, and below that is a broken bulb.

I'll try and tackle two for you tho:

RE: Obama and his Mrs hating the country and aren't proud of it. They never said they hated the country, but i'm with them on the second one- i'm not very proud of our country either. Finally someone recognizes how fucked up it is at the moment and has the sack to say so. Does that make me anti-american or unpatriotic?

re: the 2nd amendment -When our founding fathers wrote the constitution, you can bet your ass they were not talking about automatic assault rifles. They were talking about your right to own a rifle and go out into the woods and get food for yourself and defend yourself and your country. You would still have that right if they banned assault rifles. Who the fk needs an assault rifle?

[Garrick]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

my two cents... democrats obviously have very different perspectives than republicans. shosh is probably a conservative republican and doesn't want the govt meddling with his business. obama AND hillary (especially hillary) scare the fuck out of me for the same reason. i do not want the govt meddling with my shit. let me make my own choices. gov't dependence is uesless in the end because they cannot shelter everyone forever. hence the downfall of other great societies, Rome, Germany. Gov't dependence equals beginning of the end. it also scares the hell out of me that obama thinks he can simply talk to terrorists/anti-americans and change their perception. if he can, great (doubtful). if he can't, we are fucked.

this is a VERY drastic perception and tons of people can argue that point to the Nth degree, but currently this is how i preceive what is happening in our nation. the democrats want to take the power from the people and instill it in the govt. people will stop thinking for themselves and the dependence on the govt takes over. look at how this whole housing crisis started and look where we are now.

toasty and jenks... don't rip me too bad.


and that link is very very funny. mccain is an old fart, fo sho. romney for vp!

[toasty]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

Although I do have an issue with him disrespecting the national anthem (true and proven).

try this -- go to a baseball game, or a football game, or any large event where they sing the national anthem. Look around, and you'll see some people with their hands over their hearts, and some people who don't have their hands on their hearts. To be honest, depending upon what day it is, I might be fall into either camp, and do you know how much thought I put into whether or not I'm going to put my hand on my heart during the national anthem? Zero. Do you know how I determine whether I will or I won't? Me either -- I frankly don't think about it one way or the other. Does that make me unpatriotic, or a traitor? Are those thousands of other people that don't have their hands on their hearts traitors, too?

My main issue with Wright and Mrs. Obama is the distasteful things they said about our country: that they hate it and they are not proud of it. Seriously, gtfo of the country if you dont like it. Go live somewhere else where you are proud of it.

I'm not going to try to defend what Wright said, but as to his wife, as I recall, she said "for the first time in my adult lifetime I am really proud of my country. And not just because Barack has done well, but because I think people are hungry for change.” I don't see what the big deal is about this comment, honestly. Loving your country and being loyal to your country are not necessarily synonymous with being proud of your country. I love the US, but I look at the Bush years, and I can't say I'm particularly proud of my country during that time. Bill Clinton before him didn't really inspire a lot of pride in me, either. I was fine with the elder Bush, but I can't say I was gaga over the dude. Maybe she didn't word it as well as she should have, but I don't think the sentiment is anything all that controversial.

The corruption scandal i am referring to is not with William Ayers, but that with Antoin "Tony" Rezko. If you're not familiar with it, let me know and I'll get you some links. There is a lot of shady stuff Rezko did and him and Obama essentially scratched each other backs. This trial is still pending though.

You do realize that Obama is not on trial, that Rezko is, right? Can you point to anything that Obama actually did wrong here (apart from his admission that dealing with the guy at all was "boneheaded")? That would be news to me.

Why is our position in the world cause of so much concern? Short of us shaking hands with Al-Qaeda and Kim Jong Ill, things wont change. The whole world "hates" us but still everyone wants to live here and be like US.

This is exactly the type of mindset that got us into this mess. If we're going to fight those that would do us harm, we have to have the support of other civilized nations. That's why "Fuck the rest of y'all, we're doing whatever the fuck we want" is bad policy.

[shosh]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

There is so much more wrong with your arguments above, but it's a little difficult to argue with your logic because you're making some generalizations and have some ideas that are all over the freaking place, and frankly are a bit whacky. Arguing some of the points above with you would be like trying to untangle that big ball of christmas lights you pull out of the attic a few days before christmas to decorate your tree. Pull one knot, it creates another not, and below that is a broken bulb.

I'll try and tackle two for you tho:

RE: Obama and his Mrs hating the country and aren't proud of it. They never said they hated the country, but i'm with them on the second one- i'm not very proud of our country either. Finally someone recognizes how fucked up it is at the moment and has the sack to say so. Does that make me anti-american or unpatriotic?

re: the 2nd amendment -When our founding fathers wrote the constitution, you can bet your ass they were not talking about automatic assault rifles. They were talking about your right to own a rifle and go out into the woods and get food for yourself and defend yourself and your country. You would still have that right if they banned assault rifles. Who the fk needs an assault rifle?

lol ok mister.
“People in this country are ready for change and hungry for a different kind of politics and … for the first time in my adult life I am proud of my country because it feels like hope is finally making a comeback.”
Really? She has never been proud of her country and the only reason she is, is because her husband runs for president? Sorry Jenks but if you tell me that you've never been proud of your country i will tell you the same thing: you are free to leave and go to another country that does make you proud.

Do you even know what an assault rifle is?

[Jenks]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

i feel ya garrick- i'm neither republican nor democrat. i vote for the best candidate each election. i've voted both sides in the past.

generally i agree with you, i want the gov out of my life.

really tho, if you think for one second obama is going to have his goverment more in your life than the current republican administration, you're huffing glue.

right now = biggest government ever. even the leftest lefty is going to be subtracting from this one.

[Jenks]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

Do you even know what an assault rifle is?

I used to own an SKS. In fact, i own several guns. Don't peg me for some talking out of my ass hippie leftist, chief.

[Jenks]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

dbl pst

[Garrick]

Re: Things younger than John Mccain!!

i just pray universal healthcare is never instilled in the US. lord knows i don't want to end up with teeth like those brits (sorry mj )