support the troops

[Shpira]

Re: support the troops

Apparently some people still thing World War 1 started due to the Assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Nothing to do with the fact that ships where switching from Coal to Oil something the Germans had little of. The British sent more troops to defend the oil supplies in the middle east than any country in Europe.

Thats one of the reasons yes but there are some more...but this thread is not really about that...

Some people also seem to think that any county including the US ever does anything in order to help others...the US has done such great things for Europe...helped the Europeans in all the wars and somehow ended up on top...I wonder how you would explain that, is it because the US received nothing in return god came down and remodeled the world to make the US the most powerful nation or is it because all that help given to European nations was given under certain conditions that drastically improved the US's position in the world. So as I said, pick up a book.

In addition to this let me just point out to some who are misinformed here...one of the main reasons why Saddam Hussein was not taken out in the first gulf war was because the US administration at the time rightly recognized the deep ethnic divisions that were present in the country and as a result understood that rebuilding Iraq and preventing civil war would be very difficult. The current administration however appears to believe some fairy tale about American Values being universal or whatever. "Inside every gook there is an American screaming to come out " - ring any bells - change gook for Iraqi and you get the idea, but the outcome is gonna pretty much similar...

As for hambino saying that women are oppressed for wearing burkhas...tell that to hundreds of thousands of Muslim women who choose to wear them in London.
Is the US gonna bring democracy to East London next as well?


p.s. the US should align their oil prices with the prices in the rest of the world and use the taxes for developing alternative fuel rather than have ppl nag about oil prices 24/7...this however will never happen as long as you have the same people who are in power making a killing profit out of working for oil corporations and those who are not working getting huge campaign funding from them.

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

well, in the interest of totally hijacking this thread...

...I wonder how you would explain that, is it because the US received nothing in return god came down and remodeled the world to make the US the most powerful nation or is it because all that help given to European nations was given under certain conditions that drastically improved the US's position in the world.

A number of factors, chiefly among which was the US's long-standing decision to embrace a fundamentally capitalist rather than a socialist (or, God forbid, a communist) system. The system has its drawbacks, but it is a key reason that the US was been "on top" in terms of economic power for most of the 20th century, while most of France was continuously on strike (still is) and other nations like Russia and China were busy terrorizing their own people. The Chinese, among others, are now finally figuring all this out.

p.s. the US should align their oil prices with the prices in the rest of the world and use the taxes for developing alternative fuel rather than have ppl nag about oil prices 24/7...this however will never happen as long as you have the same people who are in power making a killing profit out of working for oil corporations and those who are not working getting huge campaign funding from them.

The US doesn't set its own oil prices; they are fundamentally set by global market forces. Alternative energy will be developed now that it is finally economically feasible for business entrepreneurs to take on that investment risk, but this is a process that will take decades to develop and implement.

[chunky]

Re: support the troops

Some people also seem to think that any county including the US ever does anything in order to help others...the US has done such great things for Europe...helped the Europeans in all the wars and somehow ended up on top...I wonder how you would explain that, is it because the US received nothing in return god came down and remodeled the world to make the US the most powerful nation or is it because all that help given to European nations was given under certain conditions that drastically improved the US's position in the world. So as I said, pick up a book.

What has the US done for Europe? The US didn't join the the Second World War until Pearl Harbour was attacked (Something the US government had prior knowledge of and let happen) Also the UK only stopped paying back the US loan for the war in 2006. 50 years at 2% APR. They kept the cold war running long after the Soviet Union wanted to disarm. They have constantly tired to exploit world trade. So what exactly have they done? I cant think of anything they have done that has been for the good of man without having another agenda. I suppose they did give McDonald's, followed by Cruse Missiles.

[djc200]

Re: support the troops

wow... it's getting political here! just listen to music I say. Focus on being a better person. don't get wrapped up in fear campaigns and the 11 o'clock news. you're wasting away in front of the tube.

just kidding... being conscious is all and good, but too much american media can eat away at your soul.

look on the bright side, it's boat party season again! woohoo!!

What has the US done for Europe? The US didn't join the the Second World War until Pearl Harbour was attacked (Something the US government had prior knowledge of and let happen) Also the UK only stopped paying back the US loan for the war in 2006. 50 years at 2% APR. They kept the cold war running long after the Soviet Union wanted to disarm. So what exactly have they done? I cant think of anything they have done that has been for the good of man without having another agenda. I suppose they did give McDonald's, followed by Cruse Missiles.

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

What has the US done for Europe? The US didn't join the the Second World War until Pearl Harbour was attacked (Something the US government had prior knowledge of and let happen) Also the UK only stopped paying back the US loan for the war in 2006. 50 years at 2% APR. They kept the cold war running long after the Soviet Union wanted to disarm. They have constantly tired to exploit world trade. So what exactly have they done? I cant think of anything they have done that has been for the good of man without having another agenda. I suppose they did give McDonald's, followed by Cruse Missiles.

um...ok I know that the US is far from perfect, but I have to call this out for the ignorant statement that it is. I'm getting damn sick of this ignorant trend to just condemn the entire country out of hand. And I say that as a European who came to this country in his youth.

1. The US actually played a significant role in helping defeat the Axis powers and thus bring peace to Europe. Oh, and the US also played a similar role in World War I.

2. Providing funding for reconstruction was not "nothing". It tangibly helped war-torn Europe rebuild so that it could more rapidly return to economic growth.

3. For all of its mistakes, the US market-based economic system has been one of the past century's most important generators of economic growth, innovation, and productivity and is responsible for many of the products and services - much of the lifestyle - that you benefit from and take for granted on a daily basis. For all its mistakes, at least the US wasn't sitting around oppressing and obstructing its own people through stupid Communist regimes, like numerous other nations have (and still do). I should know, because I had to flee from one of those kinds of countries.

Oh and by the way...look around and you'll see that other nations have woken up and are moving closer to the kind of a free market-based model that the US in many ways pioneered (China? India? Eastern Europe??). There's a good reason for this: it just works better than the other alternatives tried, despite its drawbacks. It's a major facet of this thing called "globalization", and it's not going away.

And now I'll leave you all with one final question: How has your country fared in the legacy that it has "given to the world"? Perhaps if you stop and seriously think about that for a minute, you will come to realize that no country is "perfect" or entirely "bad". All countries have things in their past that are shameful. The world is actually shades of grey, not black and white.

Some perspective and education might greatly enhance the credibility of some peoples' opinions around here.

[88Mariner]

Re: support the troops

miroslav,

you commit the same fallacy as you cite against Chucky: giving credit to a nation where the decision was based on the choices made by individuals. It would be no different than claiming praise for Croatia (or Serbia) for the gains made possible by Tesla, or saying America deserves credit for the gold medals won by Jesse owens. Equal true, it would be a disservice to George Washinton to claim that "the United States defeated the British in the Revolutionary War", which I think is on point to what you have commented on. It is to the credit of the individual, not the nationality of that person. Rarely, if ever, does a nation act as a purely unified whole. But then, it has been years since people have been able to discern the trees from the forest...

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

miroslav,

you commit the same fallacy as you cite against Chucky: giving credit to a nation where the decision was based on the choices made by individuals. It would be no different than claiming praise for Croatia (or Serbia) for the gains made possible by Tesla, or saying America deserves credit for the gold medals won by Jesse owens. Equal true, it would be a disservice to George Washinton to claim that "the United States defeated the British in the Revolutionary War", which I think is on point to what you have commented on. It is to the credit of the individual, not the nationality of that person. Rarely, if ever, does a nation act as a purely unified whole. But then, it has been years since people have been able to discern the trees from the forest...

Yes, what the individual achieves is an important facet. But what the individual is able to achieve is significantly influenced by the environment of the nation in which he/she resides, as evidenced by economic incentive systems, financial institutions, legal institutions, civic/cultural institutions, educational policies, form of government, degree of government intervention, cultural norms, values, etc...the list is long. Look at the US vs. Myanmar and tell me what differences you see...

You as an individual would not even have been able to type what you just did without potential criminal liability back in my home country prior to 1989.

[88Mariner]

Re: support the troops

that may be true, but the united states government has done nothing in light of how i formed my view in the above post. it may influence the environment which i form these views, but my thoughts are my own: they are not informed to me by any government, governing body, media personality, or otherwise.

if what you say is true of all decisions, that the government has a hand in all of it, then where does the slippery slope of credit and blame end?

[chuckc]

miroslav its no use, these people are brainwashed. what a joke.

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

that may be true, but the united states government has done nothing in light of how i formed my view in the above post. it may influence the environment which i form these views, but my thoughts are my own: they are not informed to me by any government, governing body, media personality, or otherwise

Yes, this is true. But in a literal sense, you're always free anywhere in the world with respect to your thoughts. Your societal environment can significantly influence your thoughts, but no one can read your mind and literally control your thoughts (yet...). The real question is: what are you able to do based on those thoughts? Can you act on them and implement them? Can you leverage financial, educational, or civic systems to make it happen? Can you even publicly express your thoughts? The answers to these questions may drastically vary across societies.

Put another way: Google and Microsoft were organizations started by individuals, but there is a reason why things like this tended to be created in America and not in various other countries.

if what you say is true of all decisions, that the government has a hand in all of it, then where does the slippery slope of credit and blame end?

I wouldn't say it is "government" that has a hand in it all, but rather the society - which is a product of many things, including the government, institutions, culture, etc. By and large, individuals still bear the final credit and blame.




so, now that I have wrecked this thread entirely.....

support the troops.

[88Mariner]

Re: support the troops

miroslav its no use, these people are brainwashed. what a joke.

this threat can't continue until you can comprehend that one can support the troops while at the same time question the 'stated' and 'changing' reasons why we are in Iraq. that is to say, 'differentiate' between the two.

what is, I think, most sickening, is that you give free passes to the government. how left-wing are you again?

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

btw sorry to everyone if I was a bit shitty in my tone... just had a bad day.

you'll find me over in the rockin' boobage thread!

[88Mariner]

Re: support the troops

Put another way: Google and Microsoft were organizations started by individuals, but there is a reason why things like this tended to be created in America and not in various other countries.

To some extent you are correct. But ideas are not inhibited by geographical boundaries. I think you're mixing up creation and effect. Microsoft and Google flourished here b/c of the market system we use here. But the ideas that founded these businesses could have been concieved anywhere, even on a plane. Bill Gates could have easily been in Ghana when the idea to build a personal computer in his garage was concieved. IF there were any person aside from Bill Gates who should take credit for the 'environment' he was brought up in, it would be his parents. And eventually, on down the line, i guess the government.

Yes, i am talking in a literal 'sense' as you have said. What other vantage point would there be? The theoretical viewpoint is where a slippery slope gets involved. But I see your point nonetheless. And I'm glad to see you agree that the individual is the one to take credit or blame.

Let me expand on this for a second. Look at Nikolai Tesla. I used this example above. His national origin is Serbia but consider Croatia his homeland. I find it completely rediculous that members of each side continue to contest whether he was "more serbian" or "more croatian". It's besides the point for each group to take claim to his products, and at worst, persons like him are used as propoganda to support different factions (much like what the USSR was doing back during the cold war). Yet, even when he moved the United States, it was a private banker, J.P. Morgan, who largely funded his work, his best work in fact. Even when Tesla was not in the United States, he was writing down unique ideas (for example, he created the first loudspeaker/amplifier in Hungary). It was who he was. His ability to expand on them, and his risk to benefit all mankind (his prime motive), was largely due to risks taken by private investors (like J.P Morgan and Edison), not national governments.

That said, I think it would make things worse if governments started taking credit for the ideas and successes of private individuals. Alternatively, a government is nothing but a mass aggregate of private individuals who have differing motives and who aren't involved with all processes. To say that the government itself is to be credited would be no different than saying Planet Earth developed electricity, or whatever. I think I've made my point clear. Not to keep pounding away....

sigh. But like i said, support the troops. question the government.

[Shpira]

Re: support the troops

well, in the interest of totally hijacking this thread...



A number of factors, chiefly among which was the US's long-standing decision to embrace a fundamentally capitalist rather than a socialist (or, God forbid, a communist) system. The system has its drawbacks, but it is a key reason that the US was been "on top" in terms of economic power for most of the 20th century, while most of France was continuously on strike (still is) and other nations like Russia and China were busy terrorizing their own people. The Chinese, among others, are now finally figuring all this out.



The US doesn't set its own oil prices; they are fundamentally set by global market forces. Alternative energy will be developed now that it is finally economically feasible for business entrepreneurs to take on that investment risk, but this is a process that will take decades to develop and implement.

What I had in mind were the conditional agreements that dictated the post war world that we live in today...i.e. "free markets" end of the empires etc,etc...

As for the oil prices I meant subsidies and taxes...

this thread is obviously greatly influenced on all sides by our backgrounds...no middle ground to be found.

This is my last post here.


p.s. chunky I was being sarcastic...
n.b. the point I was trying to make wasn't anti-American....All nations are shit IMO, the US just gets grilled more than others because its more powerful and therefore more involved in IR + its the most powerful and therefore interested in keeping others below it...so naturally "hated" by most others.

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

THERE WILL BE NO COMPROMISE!!!



We will make this damn thread a sticky and keep it alive every day until all of you see things my way. If you refuse, we will turn this site strictly into a Vocal Booty Trance forum!



ok maybe not.

peace out.

support the troops - get them the hell out of Iraq and bring them home safely!