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Re: Will it take off?
i,m getting drunk right now so in about 30 minutes anything will take off :'(
i,m getting drunk right now so in about 30 minutes anything will take off :'(
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Re: Will it take off?
lol, pisana understands, the rest of you obviously do not have logic as your forte, meh who needs it really anyway.
heres a couple of threads after typing 'plane conveyor' were they have solved it:
"But of course cars and planes don't work the same way. A car's wheels are its means of propulsion--they push the road backwards (relatively speaking), and the car moves forward. In contrast, a plane's wheels aren't motorized; their purpose is to reduce friction during takeoff (and add it, by braking, when landing). What gets a plane moving are its propellers or jet turbines, which shove the air backward and thereby impel the plane forward. What the wheels, conveyor belt, etc, are up to is largely irrelevant. Let me repeat: Once the pilot fires up the engines, the plane moves forward at pretty much the usual speed relative to the ground--and more importantly the air--regardless of how fast the conveyor belt is moving backward. This generates lift on the wings, and the plane takes off. All the conveyor belt does is, as you correctly conclude, make the plane's wheels spin madly."
case closed - although i am willing seriously to bet anyone any amount of money that i am right
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http://www.myspace.com/mjdubmusic
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl."Comment
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Re: Will it take off?
so what i used to play flight simulator when I was about 8 years old - you don't need to understand physics to fly a plane, drive a car, or to hit a ball with a golf club. for instance in the latter, most people don't even know why swing and timing etc is so important; they just see the results. you don't need to understand biochemistry to make a good cake.
do you regularly take off from conveyor belts? and please, are you actually considering and thinking about the other arguments?
do me a favour and read this, its a comprehensive argument-
Here is yet another good argument from someone who thought the opposite initially and credit to them, rethought it and admitted they were initially wrong:
i don't think anyone is stupid for not getting it, but come on, its all there now!
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Re: Will it take off?
lastly, in 'imaginary' physics world, if the conveyor belt is moving at the same speed as the plane, and this causes the plane to be still, then the conveyor belt will also be still. if the plane moves forward, it means that the conveyor belt is not matching the plane speed. logically the conveyor will never move.
if instead you mean that the conveyor matches the wheelspeed, then imagine if you glue the wheels on your aeroplane so they can't move, you could probably still take off with the conveyor belt still, with the jet engines dragging the glued wheels alongComment
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Re: Will it take off?
i agree, it could be more specified, and I sense you are beginning to understand how the question is designed to trick you:
It made you think that I was arguing something that is logically impossible - whence its clear effectiveness in generating arguments!
There is also a paradox, if the conveyor belt matches wheel speed since acceleration isn't instantaneous, then the conveyor will quickly accelerate to infinity. this is because as conveyor speed increases by 1 mph it also increases wheel speed by 1mph, so if wheelspeed starts at 1mph, then conveyor matches it to 1mph, by then wheelspeed is 1+1mph = 2mph and then conveyor must got at 2mph, so wheelspeed becomes 4mph, and this happens as quickly as the conveyor system can update itself to the wheelspeed, so if its instantaneous (which is impossible) then the conveyor will suddenly start moving at infinite speed.
The equilibrium you aer imaging is when the force of the jet engines matches the force of friction from the wheels on the conveyor.
If the problem were this: a conveyor belt matches the jet engines force via force it creats by rotating the wheel backwards, could a plane take off? The answer would be hypothetically no, although i suspect the small wheels on an aeroplane would melt before they matched the jet engines full force.Comment
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Re: Will it take off?
please people, next time youre at the gym, and youre running on the threadmill, extend your arms and tell me if you feel the air running under your arms........
no, you know why??? because youre not moviing forward, youre not moving from point a to point b, you are an object vertically at rest, therefore you cannot displace the air around you. Like one of Newton law's says, you cannot ocupate the same space that is occupied by another entity, so, everytime you move, you displace the air around you, this is what makes a plane fly, the air that is being displaced by the planes forward motion. So, if you really really think about it for a second, the plane is occupiing the exact same space all the time, not moving at all, not displacing anything, thus not having any forward motion, or "air under its wings"
and no, the engines are not pumping air trough the wings, there just sucking up air and tunneling it on a concentrated spot, that being the engine, so you have no air displacement, all the air that the engines are sucking is just going trough the engine, thats it, not trough the tips of the wings, or trough the body of the plane.
..:: listen :: react ::..
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Re: Will it take off?
please people, next time youre at the gym, and youre running on the threadmill, extend your arms and tell me if you feel the air running under your arms........
no, you know why??? because youre not moviing forward, youre not moving from point a to point b, you are an object vertically at rest, therefore you cannot displace the air around you. Like one of Newton law's says, you cannot ocupate the same space that is occupied by another entity, so, everytime you move, you displace the air around you, this is what makes a plane fly, the air that is being displaced by the planes forward motion. So, if you really really think about it for a second, the plane is occupiing the exact same space all the time, not moving at all, not displacing anything, thus not having any forward motion, or "air under its wings"
and no, the engines are not pumping air trough the wings, there just sucking up air and tunneling it on a concentrated spot, that being the engine, so you have no air displacement, all the air that the engines are sucking is just going trough the engine, thats it, not trough the tips of the wings, or trough the body of the plane.
you havn't read any of the counterarguments - why bother arguing if you don't read them? . when you run on a treadmill, you are using your feet - which in sum (human locomotion is more complext) cause your forward motion relative to the -surface- on which you are standing on via the -surface-, i.e. the treadmill. an aeroplane generates accelerating force on the -air- not the surface.
you don't properly understand how jets generate forward momentum. the air sucked into the engines requires energy to do so force = mass x acceleration, and air weighs stuff hence air pressure etc. this force has to be matched in the opposite direction (by Newtons Law which holds pretty tightly in earthbound conditions), so since you are pulling air from the front to the back, the opposite force is that the plane which is attached to the engines accelerates forward generating speed.
or are you having me on? lol and i like your gym arm flapping argument - it really makes me sound stupid that I should be arguing that, but it is not a sound analogy, and whence, petard; hoistedComment
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Re: Will it take off?
Here is another famous problem which generated a massive amount of controversy with even doctors of mathematics got wrong and argued vehemently about:
It's called the monty hall problem, and the answer is, you should -always- switch.
“Suppose you're on a game show, and you're given the choice of three doors: Behind one door is a car; behind the others, goats. You pick a door, say No. 1, and the host, who knows what's behind the doors, opens another door, say No. 3, which has a goat. He then says to you, "Do you want to pick door No. 2?" Is it to your advantage to switch your choice?”Comment
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Re: Will it take off?
After this post, I'm done with this thread because you refuse to understand what I'm saying.
First off, because you played flight simulators hardly makes you a pilot (asinine point you're trying to make there, btw). The very first lesson of the ground school (before they even let you near a plane) is focused on basic aerodynamics principles/inner workings of your plane and proving you understand it completely (which you do not), so don't give me this "I'm a pilot too" garbage. I thought that flying a plane would be just as easy as driving a car/making a cake/hitting a ball too, but it is not. You must know everything about the plane you're flying through and through before you are even able to start it up (unlike driver's licenses that are given out relatively willy-nilly to anybody).
Lesson 1: How the damn wing works
Higher pressure on the bottom of the wing, because the air is traveling a shorter distance, pushes the wing upward (lift). You must be moving forward in physical space to have air move over your wing. No amount of jet engine power changes this undeniable Newtonian fact (see Cj tarl's post). Conveyor belts prevent air from moving over wings because they prevent forward motion. Therefore, no matter how much you want it to, the plane will not have air moving over its wings, therefore, no lift is created. Period.
Think about it. Aviation has existed for 105 years and has yielded the fucking F-22 Raptor and space shuttle. Would you not think that shortening/removing takeoff roll would be a top priority for the military, especially for the navy? Would they also have already discovered how to do this if we have F-22's and space shuttles? Of course it would be, and of course they would have, but physics (unless you're going the speed of light) has unbreakable laws. That's just reality my friend.
Now I'll let others back me up on this because I'm done with this endless loop of an argument.http://www.myspace.com/mjdubmusic
You can't have manslaughter without laughter.
"Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl."Comment
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