religion in politics: yes or no?

[Yao]

I've noticed that Religion is playing a major role in US politics, whereas in the EU this is virtually unimaginable. Even in Turkey, that wants to join je EU religion does not have an impact on politics as big as in the US, the army (!!) seeing to the secular nature of the state.

Yesterday I saw a documentary about the influence of mostly the evangelists, and how they in time have tried to expand their influence in the White House. Pretty scary to see, mostly because they're aiming to get their norms & values expressed in laws, disregarding the large part of the US citizens that are not (strongly) religious.
I saw thay were behind Carter and Reagan and now Bush, which is pretty obvious of course.

I've seen these guys Falwell, Robertson, Bakker and Robinson, and even though they don't use bombs to convince people about their belief they sure are a bunch of friggin fundamentalists. Don't you guys ever get fed up with those numbskulls throwing the bible at you on TV all day, and trying to get into your through politics?

I don't mind religion, or people being religious, as long as they respect my worldview, but I really couldn't stand it if some group in my country was going political on such a large scale to get their viewpoints into my life.

[mixu]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

The neo-conservatives philosophy (as espoused by Leo Strauss, the founder of neo-conservatism) is pro-religion only because they believe religion is a useful tool for maintaining order and control over a society.

Wolfowitz studied under Strauss (while Perle was influenced by him) and they were among the first advocates of his theories under a US administration which mobilised the previously untapped vote of the evangelical Christians, successfully courted by Carter before migrating to the Republicans and subsequently Reagan and Bush.

Yes, it's more complex than that but it's a powerful voter-base for the Republicans even though the neo-cons pulling the strings don't buy into it. Another tool, along with 'fear', that they like to use to 'control' the people.

[Yao]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

From what I've learned it wasn't Carter courting the evangelicals, but rather the other way round: the Ev's using a neo-con candidate who is very likely to support their interests to enlarge their influence on politics and from there on social life.

I didn't know that about Strauss, thoug, but was that really Leo or was it Levi (I know the latter one for his sociological studies).

[toasty]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

The increasing role of overt religious policy in our government is troubling to me, from a separation of church and state standpoint. I am OK with my leaders having religion, but I don't want them foisting their views upon me or recognizing any particular faith as part of public policy.

Along these lines, did you all know that Bush, while Governor of Texas named June 22 (I think) "Jesus Day?" No bullshit.

[mixu]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

From what I've learned it wasn't Carter courting the evangelicals, but rather the other way round: the Ev's using a neo-con candidate who is very likely to support their interests to enlarge their influence on politics and from there on social life.

I didn't know that about Strauss, thoug, but was that really Leo or was it Levi (I know the latter one for his sociological studies).

You may be right about Carter... haven't fully sussed that out yet. It obviously works both ways.

Levi Strauss was different to Leo. This gives some background, it's pretty succinct but not exhaustive. The 'War on Terror' is scarily reminiscent of the Cold War in this light...

[AlienD]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

The 'War on Terror' is scarily reminiscent of the Cold War in this light...

After 9/11 Bush used the word "crusade" to describe the war on terror until public protests (and more likely his advisors) caused him to change his rhetoric.

There was an excellent "Frontline" documentary on PBS called "The Jesus Factor" that looked at Bush's faith. I thought it was generally evenhanded, in that it presented people that were Bush supporters as well as Bush's critics.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/president/

One of the more disturbing moments was when a friend of the Bush family described how George got into an argument with his mom about whether or not people who hadn't accepted Jesus in their hearts go to hell. He insisted that they do. His mom (wisely) said he shouldn't go there. They even called up the Rev. Billy Graham, and he told W. that he should just worry about himself. The fact that our commander in chief basically thinks that millions of Americans (not to mentions millions of people around the world) are doomed to go to hell (but he won't) is downright chilling.

[Yao]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

Thanx for the article mixu, it was enlightening and made it easier to understand what you meant.

According to Strauss knowledge should be restricted if I got it right, to an elite. He does however overlook the fact that elites in any country have more interests than just political ones, mainly economical. And if that is the case, his statement would not be valid. But I think Pfaff might just have omitted any remarks from Strauss on that side of the story, so I can't be conclusive about that.

He also assumes that he 'common' people won't be able to handle te situation as it is, and have to be provided with not even a simplified version, but lies to keep spirits high. Talk about arrogance...

His influence is pretty clear in the Bush administration, and the article has cleared some things up for me. And I dislike the Bush administration even more now.

As for Bush thinking everyone that is a non-believer will go to hell...If it exists, I think he'll have some things to explain to his maker when he's putting his foot in the bottle, AlienD.
His rhetorics may very well have their roots in his belief, and even though most critics are concentrating on his economical ties, maybe the influence of his belief should not be underestimated when it comes to his zeal in fighting terrorists (read: muslims).

Thanx again Mixu, that was a good read.

[AlienD]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

What a coincidence, check out this op-ed piece from today's Guardian UK...


George, God here ...
President Bush has words with the Almighty

Terry Jones
Friday October 22, 2004

"George?"
"Yes?"
"This is God here ..."
"Hi, God. What can I do for you?"
"I want you to stop this Iraq thing, George."
"But you told me to do it, God!"
"No I didn't, George ..."
"But you did! You spoke to me through Karl, Rumsey and Dick and all those other really clever guys!"
"How did you know it was me talking, George?"
"Instinct, God. I just knew it!"
"Do you really think I'd want you to unleash all this horror and bloodshed on another lot of human beings?"
"But they're Muslims! They don't believe in You, God!"
"But, George, they do believe in me. Jews, Christians and Moslems all worship the same Me! Didn't you do comparative theology at school, George?"
"No, of course not! You think I'm some sort of peace-waving dope-headed liberal faggot-lover, God?"
"No, of course not, George, but I expect you to know something about the people you're bombing."
"Oh, come on! I know it's right to bomb those oily rag-heads until there's not one left to wipe a wrench on!"
"How do you know that, George?"
"Cause You tell me that's what I should do, God."
"George, I do not tell you to do that!"
"But I hear You, God! You speak to me! You tell me what to do! You tell me what is Right and what is Wrong! That's why I don't need to listen to any soft-baked, mealy-mouthed liberal Kerry-pickers!"
"George, you're deluding yourself."
"God! How can you say that? I got some of the most powerful people on this planet down on their knees every day in the White House just a-praying to You! Now are you gonna tell me You ain't listening? Because if You ain't listening, God, that's Your problem - not mine!"
"George, of course I'm listening - it's you who is not listening to Me!"
"And I'll tell you why! 'Cause You ain't addressing me right."
"What d'you mean, you jumped-up little Ivy League draft-dodger?"
"If you're so 'omniscient', God, you oughta know that you gotta go through Karl Rove, John Ashcroft, Rumsey and Dick ... those fellas know what they're talking about! I can't listen to just any deity who can pick up the phone!"
"But, I'm God, George!"
"Does Karl say you are?"
"But why do you believe Karl?"
"Because my gut tells me he's right!"
"Listen, you ignorant little pinch-eyed Billy Graham convert! Can't you get it into your head that I'm God and I'm telling you to stop all this 'pre-emptive strike' nonsense! Stop destroying Iraq! Stop supporting that monster Sharon! Stop picking a fight with the only other human beings on the planet that believe in Me! You're leading the world into unbelievable chaos and horror!"
"That's enough, God! That's just the sort of defeatist crap that I won't allow in the White House! Get out of here!"
"I cannot believe I'm hearing this, George."
"Well you better start believing, God, because this is the new reality. Don'tcha know that a recent Gallup poll shows that 42% of Americans identify themselves as 'born again'? That cuts across Republicans and Democrats, rich and poor, white and black! This is a real political power base, God, and you'd better believe it!"
"Look, all I'm asking is for you to show a little compassion to your fellow human beings!"
"I'm not going to debate this with you, God! You're beginning to sound like you belong to the reality-based community!"
"What the hell does that mean?"
"Well by the 'reality-based community', we mean people who believe that solutions emerge from their judicious study of discernible reality."
"Sounds fair enough..."
"But, as one of my advisors told Ron Suskind of the Wall Street Journal: 'The reality-based community is not the way the world really works any more. We're an empire now and, when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality - judiciously, as you will - we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do'."
"You mean...you don't give a damn, George?"
"I mean You speak through me, God, not the other way round! Is that clear?"
"Yes, Mr President."

[Yao]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

[msindi]

Religion and governement should never be mixed IMO

[Balanc3]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

It's funny... now that Kerry is losing the support on the black vote and women, he is also trying to pull the evangelical christian. If you've heard any recent speeches you will notice how he claims he is going to carry his faith with him into the White House and he has even gone as far as quoting bible scriptures. Just shows how desperate he has gotten, he's been caught fuckin a few sheep. But imo religion and politics don't mix, no matter who speaks it.

[santo26]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

I think one thing is politic and another religion, I think religion must not be in politics, but they stay as much as they can,and that is and error,

[Omar]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

Maybe.. religion must not be in politics, but God definitely should be.
God is not religion.. :wink:

[Yao]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

If you say god is not religion...then the pope is fucking sheep.

A little humanity would be nice in most cases, but god has everything to do with religion, and therefore should be left out of politics.

[REDROCK]

Re: religion in politics: yes or no?

...and it's only gotten much much worse.