F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

[dylan.lindgren]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Here's one question that holds the key to the whole appeal...

If Hamilton had not cut the last chicane, would he have still been in a position to pass Raikkonen at the end of the main straight and therefore take the lead?

I think its pretty obvious that the answer to that question is no.

I also agree that Massa should have had a penalty in Valencia - ensuring that the precedents that they have set by giving penalties to other drivers/teams for doing the same thing hold true, however these are two different situations. One was the teams fault, the other was the drivers fault.

d.

[88Mariner]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

he got the goahead from race control! checked and rechecked!

[dylan.lindgren]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

he got the goahead from race control! checked and rechecked!

Yes, you are correct they did ask race control. McLaren asked Charlie Whiting (race control) twice whether he thought Lewis Hamilton had gained advantage by cutting the chicane. He told them that all he can offer is his opinion as ultimately it is down to the Stewards whether or not he gets penalised. Whiting told McLaren that in his opinion they were safe. Turns out McLaren shouldn't have trusted Whitings judgement as he was obviously wrong.

[davetlv]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

This analysis from itv-f1.com

There’s only big story after the Belgian Grand Prix – and sadly it’s not the incredibly dramatic race with its sensational climax, but the stewards’ decision to strip Lewis Hamilton of victory and the controversy it has provoked.

In his latest feature for itv.com/f1, Mark Hughes addresses the question of whether Hamilton gained an unfair advantage with a detailed analysis of the incident at the Bus Stop chicane; and then considers the repercussions for Formula 1’s credibility given the highly charged political backdrop to the decision.

The sporting question
Lewis Hamilton was pushed out across the Spa chicane escape road by Kimi Raikkonen, rejoined ahead, backed off to allow Kimi to repass as required by the rules, went round the back of him and overtook him again. It seemed very clear-cut.

But if you were a lawyer tasked with pushing Ferrari’s case, looking for any bit of legal daylight in which to create doubt, you would question whether Lewis would have been close enough to do that move if he'd not missed the chicane, regardless of the reason why he missed it.

It’s actually a ‘what if’ question to which there can be no answer.

To compare the two scenarios – what happened, with what would have happened had Hamilton not missed the chicane – is impossible.

At this stage of the race the McLaren had vastly more grip than the Ferrari because of the way the red car loses dry tyre temperature far more quickly and totally than the McLaren in wet conditions.

So, had Lewis tucked in behind the Ferrari through the chicane, he’d have accelerated out of there far faster because of his vastly superior traction.

He would have crossed the start/finish line going faster than the Ferrari and therefore have been perfectly placed to have made full use of his vastly superior braking grip to make an outbraking move into La Source.

As it was, he crossed the start/finish line alongside the Ferrari but travelling 6km/h slower, as he was in the process of allowing Kimi by.

Which of those two scenarios would have made for a more advantageous situation for Lewis – alongside but going slower or partly behind but going faster – is impossible to judge.

Exactly how much more tyre grip did he have? Which way would it have led Kimi to move? Impossible to determine.

Which leaves us with the question: If it’s impossible to judge (which it was) then why the hell make a judgement?

The political question

Regardless of what the reasoning was as to why the stewards tasked themselves with trying to judge an impossible question, getting involved was always going to result in a widespread perception of championship manipulation – which is disastrous for the credibility of the sport.

This was not an argument over seventh place between a Renault and a Toyota, but a magnificent sporting scrap between two of the three contenders for the world championship.

It was a stunningly tense and exciting duel between two of the best drivers in the world in the two best cars, fighting out the destiny of a race – and possibly a world title – into the last couple of laps on perhaps the sport’s greatest circuit.

As an advertisement for F1 – after the tainted 2007 season, after the deadly dull Valencia race just two weeks ago – it came at a perfect moment too.

Those last three laps were among the greatest sporting moments in the sport’s history.

And with a quick bit of bureaucratic interference, all that goodwill was wiped away, turned instead into ridicule and distrust from the public.

At best it has made F1 look stupid. At worst it has triggered suspicion in some, deepened it in others.

Two weeks earlier Ferrari’s Felipe Massa, the third title contender, was released in the pit lane in what was adjudged to be a dangerous manner.

Personally I was relieved when he was not given a drive-through penalty, because that would have been interfering with the outcome of the world championship at a crucial stage over an arcane point of interpretation.

Yes, the decision played into the hands of those who believe there is Ferrari favouritism.

But to have interfered in the outcome of a crucial race just to prove that suspicion unfounded would have been wrong.

Given that backdrop, the Spa incident absolutely invited the race stewards not to get involved when the tables were turned.

And they failed to take that opportunity, thereby fuelling the perception – accurate or not – of the championship being rigged in Ferrari’s favour.

At best, it was an incredibly stupid time to come down in favour of one title contender over another.

[dylan.lindgren]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

That's an interesting article. I don't know if you guys watch the ITV coverage but after putting up with ITV's constant bias towards Lewis Hamilton (James Allen sounds like he wants to have Hamilton's babies) I don't think itv-f1.com is the best place for impartial coverage of this issue.

The big flaw in that article is the question "did he gain any advantage by cutting the chicane?". The writer of the article seems to think that we need to know what would have happened if he didn't cut the chicane. We don't. All that we need to look at is the facts. At the point where Hamilton left the chicane, he had two options - either cut the chicane or lift off and ruin his run down the next straight (due to a tighter line into the next corner). Hamilton cut the chicane, which meant that after conceding the place to Raikkonen he was still right on his gearbox and in a position to make a move into La Source.

The decision the stewards made in this case was correct, just unfortunately the decision the stewards made in Valencia was incorrect. They should have either penalised them both, or not penalised either of them. Having one penalised and the other not unfortunately reeks of favoritism which is definitely not what F1 needs at all.

d.

[FlashLight]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

I just have to say that an F1 driver, like Hamilton, if he wants to be respected, should pay attention on red lights in pits. If you go through red light on street, you are out for good. Additionally, he is driving reckless through the season, pushing other drivers out of their cornering lines. I am totally upset, as how can other drivers even tolerate that. Everyone is taking care of their cars, turning away from H, and he is driving like he is alone out there.

In my opinion, this was the penalty for McLaren/Hamilton's arrogant behavior throughout the season, in short, i dont like the idea of H winning the Championship, he is too young, let him sell his collections with signatures, he is good in that.

[88Mariner]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

^ i'll agree with you on the red lights. shiiiiiiit. ease up man!

[thesightless]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

I just have to say that an F1 driver, like Hamilton, if he wants to be respected, should pay attention on red lights in pits. If you go through red light on street, you are out for good. Additionally, he is driving reckless through the season, pushing other drivers out of their cornering lines. I am totally upset, as how can other drivers even tolerate that. Everyone is taking care of their cars, turning away from H, and he is driving like he is alone out there.

In my opinion, this was the penalty for McLaren/Hamilton's arrogant behavior throughout the season, in short, i dont like the idea of H winning the Championship, he is too young, let him sell his collections with signatures, he is good in that.

amen, and wait till next year with the rule changes,

one thing though, its f1... their rules on limiting are shite. they should allow the following
-slicks
turbo
12 cylinders
traction control
unchecked aero
22K RPM like nigel had on the lotus
no tire regulations using both molds


stop limiting development
its almost like they are stepping backwards from the advances of the late 90's and early 2000's

[88Mariner]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

^ i read they're removing the tire requirements next year. should be interesting. I agree that limitations really hurt the sport. Evolution of cars and strong competition always produce the best races.

[ddr]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

^ i read they're removing the tire requirements next year. should be interesting. I agree that limitations really hurt the sport. Evolution of cars and strong competition always produce the best races.

limiting the power of the cars is what Nascar does best.

we CERTAINLY do not want F1 to turn into nascar... for the love of god.

[FlashLight]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Canceling the limitations would hurt teams which are not Ferari, McLaren or maybe even BMW. They wouldnt have any chance against hi-tech machines.

[thesightless]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

yes, if you want limited cars, and not nascar, go watch the re-unified Indy/CART races... they have the principles of nascar (equal engines and body frames) but applies to the REAL RACING CARS, NOT A BUNCH OF INBRED, CLOSET HOMO REDNECKS.

[FlashLight]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Any comments about today?

I think that S. Vettel deserved that win, and mister H. was doing his thing again, tried to push out at least 2 other drivers.

I am personally going to smack that Raikonnen, he has to wake up.

[davetlv]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

Excellent race today, and brilliant result for Vettel; Raikonnen has, effectively, given up on the season and and has accepted the role as Massa's bitch

As for Lewis, I have no idea what your gripe is against him Flashlight, but the race i saw proved that Hamilton is a far superior driver than his title rivals. Were you a Schumacher fan by any chance?

Personally I am eagerly awaiting the next race, as anything can happen, and then bring on 2009. My tip next year - Button in the Honda. . . . . . . well, a boy can dream cant he!

[chunky]

Re: F1 steals Hamilton's win and hands it to Massa

he got the goahead from race control! checked and rechecked!

Yeah so Ron Dennis says, but there is no way that could of happened in the time scale of Hamilton leaving the track and overtaking Raikkonen. Your talking 5 seconds maximum. Ron Dennis is talking out of his arse. But this does come from the team that spy-ed on Ferrari. If i was Raikkonen Hamilton wouldn't of finished the race today