Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[day_for_night]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

So basically if we live the way we are and the government bails out the TBTF Corps then something can be done. Once a company gets to big to fail it then must be divided up into smaller corporations. This would prevent this. Now we have the US acting like they are goint o bail out everybody. I can assure everyone that this crisis if far,far from over.

This was let to happen. Bush should go to jail. The CEO of Fanny and Freddie should go to jail Henry Paulson should go to jail and the list goes on and on. That would have been the proper message to send to Wallstreet not "oh you guys are pretty big and we can't let you fail so now we will bail you out." It is crystal clear that miroslav is a socialist at heart for agreeing with this bailout. And hey if you have to bail them out OK but those who let this happen should be in jail right now for treason for causing a systemic crisis.

here is a funny poll from CNN

http://money.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/42035.html

huh? the neo-cons are the one pushing the bailout, but miro is a socialist for agreeing that its necessary? explain that one to me, please...

[runningman]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Day for Night you must be a drama queen. You picked the one little statement as a direct attack on Miroslav. Why don't we talk about people going to jail. Bernanke etc.. But no you pick out the drama.

Anyone that believes we should bail them out have a socialist point of view. We don't share in the profits do we?? But we share in the pain. That is totally wrong.

Now watch the price of oil because of this $700 B bail out. They should be investing $700 Billion for small business to save the American Dream.

Trump said it best in this interview;

http://www.cnbc.com/id/15840232?video=742027959

Oh this is far from over.. the dollar just dropped to its lowest in 7 years and oil went up $25/ barrrel today.. Ya the $700 Billion bail out is working great.

And I mean Jesus guys why would you believe anything from the Bush Administration?? Everything else they have done has failed and so will this.

[Miroslav]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Once a company gets to big to fail it then must be divided up into smaller corporations. This would prevent this.

Correction: this might have prevented this - if we had done it in time before everything blew up. It's too late and it won't do jack for you now. Your only real option is to take the loss in such a way that it doesn't bring the entire house down.

Also, notice how your recommendation ironically leans more towards a "socialist" nature. Who is going to intervene in the free markets and decide when those big corporations must be divided into smaller corporations? The government.

It is crystal clear that miroslav is a socialist at heart for agreeing with this bailout.

Maybe. Call it what you want. But I think your whole criticism is thoroughly misguided. You talk as if I am somehow for the nationalization of the banking sector as a normal course of business. I'm not; I'm for the aversion of a devastating and widespread economic collapse brought on by a meltdown of the banking sector. It's unfortunate and undesirable, but necessary. These arguments about "socialism" thoroughly miss the point. When your house is on fire, do you sit around and point fingers and criticize the city-run fire department for being "socialist"? No. You pull up the truck, get out the fire hoses, and you put out the damn fire already.

Any intervention is a temporary necessity, not a permanent solution. The government did "socialist" stuff during the last Great Depression too, and for better or worse we didn't come out of the experience like a communist 1950s Russia. And we won't this time, either.

This was let to happen. Bush should go to jail. The CEO of Fanny and Freddie should go to jail Henry Paulson should go to jail and the list goes on and on.

I don't necessarily disagree with you there. They should. But it won't help to address the current problems.

here is a funny poll from CNN

http://money.cnn.com/POLLSERVER/results/42035.html

Sorry, but I don't take that poll too seriously, because the average person doesn't know jack when it comes to financial markets and economics. And right-wing cliches based on one's high school reading of Animal Farm don't inspire confidence in me. When the chips are down, I'd rather cast my lot with the large majority of PhD economists with decades of financial markets experience who argue for some form of intervention at this point, rather than sitting around and doing nothing.

I can assure everyone that this crisis if far,far from over.

This is true. It doesn't take a crystal ball.

[runningman]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Well where does it stop then Miro?? If this is just the beginning where do the bailouts end. You have now added $1 trillion to your national debt almost overnight.

And now we are seeing the ripple effect of the bailout with oil going through the roof and the depreciation of the dollar.

We haven't even gone into the problems with medicare or medicaid yet but we will


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this is some funny shit here!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/fury-at-25bn-bonus-for-lehmans-new-york-staff-937560.html

Sounds like Lehman is really broke. So broke that the staff will get $2.5 billion in bonuses. I'm convinced now that this is nothing but a bank heist.

[superdave]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Just saw that $2.5 billion payout to the Lehman executives. And now they're speaking of helping out foreign companies too. This is a bank heist could be an accurate description. Setting aside such a large sum of money is just asking for misappropriation.

No way Congress should allow this through. I hope that the Democrats in Congress kill this and get us a reasonable plan. This reminds me a lot of Iraq when everyone said we had to go to war to protect ourselves.

[CactusBeats]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Necessary as this bailout may be, Obama ought to jump on this act of Bush, Hank Paulson, & Bernanke as wealth redistribution for the powerful & wealthy (maybe not anymore, but very recently they were). Call it what it is. Whenever Obama calls for making healthcare or taxcuts for the middle-class we hear the stale Republican talking-points of wealth redistribution. Throw it back at 'em and make McBush own Bailouts & Wealth Redistribution for CEO's and Investment Bankers (the wealthiest 1% of Americans) while former homeowners and small-time investors are losing out bigtime. Score some political points here for OBAMA.

This crisis cannot be helping McCain. Not so sure how much it helps Obama either, but I sure hope McSame doesn't score poltically from this.

[Miroslav]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Well where does it stop then Miro?? If this is just the beginning where do the bailouts end. You have now added $1 trillion to your national debt almost overnight.

And now we are seeing the ripple effect of the bailout with oil going through the roof and the depreciation of the dollar.

We haven't even gone into the problems with medicare or medicaid yet but we will


HAHAHAHAHAHAHA this is some funny shit here!!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/fury-at-25bn-bonus-for-lehmans-new-york-staff-937560.html

Sounds like Lehman is really broke. So broke that the staff will get $2.5 billion in bonuses. I'm convinced now that this is nothing but a bank heist.

Yes, I agree that adding almost $1 trillion to our national debt is a really horrible and painful prospect. Ok then...so let's just do nothing. That's the alternative. How's that sound to you?

We can sit by and watch liquidity completely dry up and witness our modern economic system essentially go down in flames. And then you and I can be assured of selling apples on the street corner and standing around in soup kitchens and bread lines, just like our predecessors did in the 1930s. Feeling better already?

But hey, I guess it's worth it. Perhaps we will sleep easier at night knowing that at least we taught those bad guys a lesson and didn't get no "socialism" 'round these parts!

[DIDI]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

I'm just scared shitless about the whole thing I keep thinking what was it all based on if it can go bad so easily, and where is all this bailout money coming from. ???

[CactusBeats]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

I'm just scared shitless about the whole thing I keep thinking what was it all based on if it can go bad so easily, and where is all this bailout money coming from. ???

From every US taxpayer who is alive now, but also every US taxpayer who is to be born for the next 100 years. Borrowing in the name of your unborn children, grandchildren, etc. is not only ethically questionable. It is immoral and it is how we do business here in the United States of America.

I have heard that the Native Americans as a cultural norm asked themselves how this would affect the next seven generations when considering any issue of importance. We not only don't consider even the next generation; we send the next seven generations the bill for our lifestyle without a thought or even a thanks or perhaps even a functioning ecosystem. How might we be remembered as a society?

Then again, maybe the oil money from the occupation of Iraq will fund this crisis. Thought I heard that from some administration official today...

[Miroslav]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Borrowing in the name of your unborn children, grandchildren, etc. is not only ethically questionable. It is immoral and it is how we do business here in the United States of America.

Nicely put. So, got any better ideas for how to deal with this?

[CactusBeats]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Got any better ideas for how to deal with this?

Yes. Don't bail out the investment banks and subsidiaries (yes, I know it's all interconnected) when $700,000,000,000 will not even begin to cover it. This 700 billion is only a band-aid and will only postpone the final tab which could run several trillion dollars. Watch the banks squander this $700 billion as doubt & fear in the financial markets suck the virtual treasury dry. Not even Hank Paulson is sure about the amount. Baby boomers are just beginning to retire in numbers and as they collectively begin to remove money from the markets, the delayed secondary crash will come calling for the motherlode. We won't even know what hit us in two or three years. Just as this economy may begin to look salvageable the bottom will fall out, and then the necessary bailout will equal at least one, maybe two or three years GDP with not even China willing to float that kind of debt in order to save world markets. A worldwide depression not seen since the 1930's will hit and following it will be record-high petroleum prices ($200/barrel?) crashing down to below $60/barrel as demand also crashes with many fewer paying customers. With 25-30% of the federal budget servicing interest on the debt (17% now ?) due partially to much reduced tax receipts, mounting unemployment, and skyrocketing inflation, the payees will be reduced to social security recipients and a substantially reduced military with little else to speak of which may make some very, very happy.

Or maybe you're right and it will work.

[CactusBeats]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Nicely put. So, got any better ideas for how to deal with this?

Oh, sorry. I got sidetracked in the last post. My solution is to let the chips fall where they may and deal directly with the aftermath. Make due on all FDIC accts up to $100K and similar deposits whose institutions have failed. Congressionally suspend trading and freeze prices on the domestic markets (the NYSE, NASDAQ, precious metals with exception of ag, food, & fuel based commodities, home loans (see below), and the ability to buy US Saving Bonds be they junk or not) for 30-45 days (depending on feasibility of working out a congressional bill) while nerves calm and reason (hopefully) takes hold. Allow the home loans that have failed to be purchased by surviving banking firms for pennies on the dollar and be reappraised at today's value and refinanced responsibly or not all where appropriate if buyer is not credit worthy. Make selling home-loan based securities a criminal act. The originator must keep and service the loan. Take extra prudent steps to keep as many people in their homes as possible. Keep the government OUT of socializing risk in the banking system. That only sets us up for the next bubble and imprudent risk-taking.

Investors can then in 30 or 45 days assess the worth of remaining banks while the risky investment banks rightfully R.I.P. This will shore up responsible lenders and rid the economy of the riskier players. Many investors across the spectrum will lose their shirts - for sure. Out of it will emerge a leaner and modest economy not still artificially boosted by gov't subsidy which can in-turn handle the boomer retirees. In the long-run, this will be easier to take than the previously posed catastrophic scenario only postponed by an administration in panic willing to appease the investment banks with a tenuous at best federal stake. If this federal stake fails the whole house of cards will fall leading to total world economic collapse in confidence and any meaningful market value. And consider the possibilities of recovery from this when fossil fuels are out of reach for most and in ever-increasing shortage of supply. Something that was completely reversed in the 1930's and 40's.

FWIW - my speculation..

[tiddles]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

i don't understand why no one is taking some of the blame for this. surely someone must be responsible for this complete and utter fuck up. ag i'm so angry about this

[runningman]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Yes, I agree that adding almost $1 trillion to our national debt is a really horrible and painful prospect. Ok then...so let's just do nothing. That's the alternative. How's that sound to you?

We can sit by and watch liquidity completely dry up and witness our modern economic system essentially go down in flames. And then you and I can be assured of selling apples on the street corner and standing around in soup kitchens and bread lines, just like our predecessors did in the 1930s. Feeling better already?

But hey, I guess it's worth it. Perhaps we will sleep easier at night knowing that at least we taught those bad guys a lesson and didn't get no "socialism" 'round these parts!

Don't be so mellow dramatic Mirolslav.. I'm pretty sure that the bankers have been making money for hundreds of years and they could have figured this out. See the difference between you and I is you believe that this is almost over and the $700 will turn things around. Well its not. You have bought this lie and it is Paulson and Bush paying out the bankers on the way out the door.

And I'm with cactus or tiddles not sure who said it but why hasn't anyone been held accountable for this??? That's how you know it is fucked up right there. I don't believe anything this aministration has to say. You know it's funny that instead of Bush being the point man on this they chose Paulson instead. Why?? Well the election of course. If this was a real crisis and you had a real president he would be the point man.

[Lorn]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

700B or 1.8 Trillion?

http://www.cnbc.com/id/26808715

—Up to $700 billion to buy assets from struggling institutions. The plan is aimed at sopping up residential and commercial mortgages from financial institutions but gives Treasury broad latitude.

—Up to $50 billion from the Great Depression-era Exchange Stabilization Fund to guarantee principal in money market mutual funds to provide the same confidence that consumers have in federally insured bank deposits.

—The Fed committed to make unspecified discount window loans to financial institutions to finance the purchase of assets from money market funds to aid redemptions.

—At least $10 billion in Treasury direct purchases of mortgage-backed securities in September. In doubling the program on Friday, the Treasury said it may purchase even more in the months ahead.

—Up to $144 billion in additional MBS purchases by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.The Treasury announced they would increase purchases up to the newly expanded investment portfolio limits of $850 billion each. On July 30, the Fannie portfolio stood at $758.1 billion with Freddie's at $798.2 billion.

—$85 billion loan for AIG, which would give the Federal government a 79.9 percent stake and avoid a bankruptcy filing for the embattled insurer. AIG management will be dismissed.

—At least $87 billion in repayments to JPMorgan Chase (JPM) for providing financing to underpin trades with units of bankrupt investment bank Lehman Brothers (LEH).

—$200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Treasury will inject up to $100 billion into each institution by purchasing preferred stock to shore up their capital as needed. The deal puts the two housing finance firms under government control.

—$300 billion for the Federal Housing Administration to refinance failing mortgage into new, reduced-principal loans with a federal guarantee, passed as part of a broad housing rescue bill.

—$4 billion in grants to local communities to help them buy and repair homes abandoned due to mortgage foreclosures.

—$29 billion in financing for JPMorgan Chase's government-brokered buyout of Bear Stearns in March. The Fed agreed to take $30 billion in questionable Bear assets as collateral, making JPMorgan liable for the first $1 billion in losses, while agreeing to shoulder any further losses.

—At least $200 billion of currently outstanding loans to banks issued through the Fed's Term Auction Facility, which was recently expanded to allow for longer loans of 84 days alongside the previous 28-day credits.

Doing a quick add up of those figures I get $1.8 Trillion. These frellers are lying to us. They don't have the taxpayers back and they don't know what the solution is. How is it congress can bicker over the price of a toilet seat for who knows how long but when it comes to spending this kind of money they must pass it swiftly, no questions asked, and oh lets throw some other pork on the bill, yea that's sounds good.