the 'danger' of obama

[shosh]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Dude, this whole "Ayers is the boogeyman" thing is just not borne out by reality. Although clearly, no one is condoning the man he once was and you may not agree with his political beliefs, current or former, I'm unaware of anything that he has done in, oh, I don't know, ALMOST 4 DECADES, that anyone has a problem with. He's gone on to be a productive member of society. If he were the monster he's made out to be, he wouldn't be asked to serve on the boards of charities, or speak regularly, or be a tenured professor at a major university.

You hate Obama, and his "association" with Ayers fits into your pre-conceived notion that Obama is a secret terrorist. For those of us in the fact-based world, though, it's just preposterous. Are you the same person you were 10 years ago, or 20 years ago? A lot has happened in the last 40 years...

Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?

[toasty]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?

Bill Ayers circa 1969? Of course not.

Bill Ayers circa 2008? Hard to say, because I don't know enough about the guy, but assuming he no longer intends to bomb anyone or anything, I'm not going to hold against him something he did 40 years ago if he otherwise has something productive to offer. I have many friends -- and I think most people are like this -- with whom I have serious differences of opinion on some issues, but with whom I have other things in common. For all I know, Bill Ayers makes the finest bratwurst in the land, and if that's the case, I'm not going to turn down an invite to his BBQ because he was a radical in the 60's.

[shosh]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Bill Ayers circa 1969? Of course not.

Bill Ayers circa 2008? Hard to say, because I don't know enough about the guy, but assuming he no longer intends to bomb anyone or anything, I'm not going to hold against him something he did 40 years ago if he otherwise has something productive to offer. I have many friends -- and I think most people are like this -- with whom I have serious differences of opinion on some issues, but with whom I have other things in common. For all I know, Bill Ayers makes the finest bratwurst in the land, and if that's the case, I'm not going to turn down an invite to his BBQ because he was a radical in the 60's.

Really?

''I don't regret setting bombs, I feel we didn't do enough.''
"I've thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it's impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful? ... I don't think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable."

hmm ok bro




on another note... fucked up that its spreading across the borders:
London: Man shot three times in street by racist gunman - for wearing Barack Obama T-shirt

[88Mariner]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

yeah toasty, would you turn down an offer to join a philanthropic organization board of directorship position because of a person you had not been previously associated with, who forty years ago had been involved in an attack on an authoritarian government that was forcing men to give up thier lives to fight for the perpetuation of the authoritarian government itself, if you knew that people would paint you two as life long sexual-political soulmates?

yeah, i guess if shosh were to ask me this, i probably would not join if i knew i had to deal with such fucked up persons trying to revise history and make me look like an ass. welp, i guess this really puts obama's judgment in question because you know, as it turns out, he accepted the position, despite what was clearly contrary to the well-being of his reputation.

Someone should send the UBS Public Affairs Executive this memo, too. He might lack full judgment in doing his job.

[Miroslav]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?

If it's Bill Ayers as he is today, then I'd have no problems with "knowing him" and saying hi to him on the street. It's not like we'd be bosom buddies, but I'm not going to cross to the opposite side of the street out of some fear of being infected by his "terrorist" ways at this point in time. He's less of a threat to society at this point than: (1) anyone who has done time in jail and been released; (2) a good 95% of our politicians; (3) all of Wall Street senior executive leadership.

And I would much rather my president have had an association with Ayers than to stoop so low as to slander people as "terrorist" based on something this inconsequentially dumb - especially when he has his own skeletons in his closet.

You wanna talk about character... It shows damn poor character on the part of McCain and his Republican friends to make these disingenous claims a priority in our national discourse, rather than things that actually matter to the American people. We've got an international national economic disaster and Americans are suffering, and these right-wing wackjobs have nothing better to do than dick around with some contrived terrorist witch hunt. Makes me sick...

Show me some real evidence that Obama conspired to commit or enabled terrorist activities, that he wrote Unabomber terrorist manifestos, that he gave money and support to terrorists, that he supported Bin Laden, that he fired RPGs at US troops in Baghdad, etc. and I will listen to you. Otherwise, STFU. Because if this is all you've got, then I'll call it for the bullshit scare tactic witch hunt it is.

there, I've said my piece. I'm out.

[shosh]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

If it's Bill Ayers as he is today, then I'd have no problems with knowing him and saying hi to him on the street. It's not like we'd be bosom buddies, but I'm not going to cross to the opposite side of the street out of some fear of being infected by his "terrorist" ways. He's less of a threat to society at this point than: (1) anyone who has done time in jail and been released; (2) a good 95% of our politicians; (3) all of Wall Street senior executive leadership.

And I would much rather my president have had an association with Ayers than to stoop so low as to slander people as "terrorist" based on something this inconsequentially dumb - especially when he has his own skeletons in his closet.

You wanna talk about character... It shows damn poor character on the part of McCain and his Republican friends to make these disingenous claims a priority in our national discourse, rather than things that actually matter to the American people. We've got an international national economic disaster and Americans are suffering, and these right-wing wackjobs have nothing better to do than dick around with some contrived terrorist witch hunt. Makes me sick...

I've said my piece. I'm out.

yet you guys are the same ones ridiculing mccain for suspending his campaign so that he can help out with the bill and praising obama for continuing his campagin? wtf?

[toasty]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

yeah toasty, would you turn down an offer to join a philanthropic organization board of directorship position because of a person you had not been previously associated with, who forty years ago had been involved in an attack on an authoritarian government that was forcing men to give up thier lives to fight for the perpetuation of the authoritarian government itself, if you knew that people would paint you two as life long sexual-political soulmates?

yeah, i guess if shosh were to ask me this, i probably would not join if i knew i had to deal with such fucked up persons trying to revise history and make me look like an ass. welp, i guess this really puts obama's judgment in question because you know, as it turns out, he accepted the position, despite what was clearly contrary to the well-being of his reputation.

Someone should send the UBS Public Affairs Executive this memo, too. He might lack full judgment in doing his job.

You raise some good points here. Matter of fact, I already serve on the board/leadership committees of a couple of community organizations, and it would probably be a good use of my time and effort to have a background search run on the other folks in those organizations to ensure that none of the people I'm associating with have done anything unsavory within the last half-century or so.

[Jenks]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

mccain .... help out with the bill

That's rich.

[toasty]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

yet you guys are the same ones ridiculing mccain for suspending his campaign so that he can help out with the bill and praising obama for continuing his campagin? wtf?

Part of me would love to crawl into your brain for a few minutes to see how your tortured logic is able to connect some of these things. My desire to retain my own sanity, however, wins out in the end.

Morbid curiosity requires me to ask, though -- what the hell does McCain suspending his campaign have to do with anything that we're discussing?

[shosh]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Part of me would love to crawl into your brain for a few minutes to see how your tortured logic is able to connect some of these things. My desire to retain my own sanity, however, wins out in the end.

Morbid curiosity requires me to ask, though -- what the hell does McCain suspending his campaign have to do with anything that we're discussing?

THIS:

You wanna talk about character... It shows damn poor character on the part of McCain and his Republican friends to make these disingenous claims a priority in our national discourse, rather than things that actually matter to the American people. We've got an international national economic disaster and Americans are suffering, and these right-wing wackjobs have nothing better to do than dick around with some contrived terrorist witch hunt. Makes me sick...

judging mccain for talking about obama's terrorist past instead of focusing on the economy. when he suspended his campaign to focus on the economy, you guys slammed him. obama only said: ill let the congress take care of it, im sure they can (right, how long did it take them and what else did they have to add to make it pass?)
also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.

[Miroslav]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

..

[shosh]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

How do McCain's largely ineffective drama queen tactics with respect to the financial crisis have anything to do with this "terrorist" accusation of Obama?

i was drawing a parallel. you are accusing mccain for not focusing on the things that matter, yet when he was doing just that you were flaming him. amirite?

[toasty]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

judging mccain for talking about obama's terrorist past instead of focusing on the economy. when he suspended his campaign to focus on the economy, you guys slammed him. obama only said: ill let the congress take care of it, im sure they can (right, how long did it take them and what else did they have to add to make it pass?)
also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.

As a matter of fact, since you asked, I wish Obama hadn't dredged up the Keating 5 thing, and if I were running his campaign, I wouldn't have raised it. Alas, I am not. I do understand the strategy, though, and the fact remains that it was raised in response to the Ayers attack, using the old adage that "a good offense is the best defense." Again, I don't agree with it, but you can't just sit and play defense, either. Turnabout is fair play, and if McCain wants to look 40 years back to question Obama's judgment, he can't really complain that Obama is pointing to something much more recent that McCain was actually knee-deep in.

The idea that McCain deserves anything other than a roll of the eyes for the "suspension of his campaign" and his invaluable assistance in getting the bailout bill across the finish line, though, is positively laughable. Surrogates did not stop attacking, campaign offices did not close, McCain did not stop personally campaigning (he just changed the fora) and nothing changed apart from the bailout bill becoming a photo op for the McCain campaign. Voters saw it for what it was -- a cheap political stunt -- and McCain's downward spiral began...

[Miroslav]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

i was drawing a parallel. you are accusing mccain for not focusing on the things that matter, yet when he was doing just that you were flaming him. amirite?

Nope, you're wrong.

Please... McCain didn't do jack. Just a week or two before that, he was telling us how "the fundamentals of the economy are sound." All McCain was trying to do was get some good closeup shots for PR purposes, hoping to sell himself off as a big hero in this crisis. And he failed spectacularly. The bill didn't pass quickly and his own party shat on him. Obama was in the meeting with Bush as well, phoned in his input where needed, and discussed his viewpoints on the bailout. Lets be honest: neither of the candidates were in the position to do the heavy lifting on this bill.

The only real difference I see between the two of them is that McCain tried to make a big dramatic production out of his exaggerated role in it for his own politican image, and Obama did not. And McCain took a popularity hit on the bailout, which suggests that the American public is not as stupid as he thought.

also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.

I don't think Obama should be talking about Keating. But at this point it's basically ammo to fire back at McCain's "terrorist" accusations.

And how can you say on one hand say that Obama's character is forever criminally tarnished by his association with Ayers, yet then in the same breath say that McCain's character is pure because he was exonerated? If those character issues are still so relevant for Obama, then you should at least be consistent and admit that they are still relevant for McCain - regardless of whether or not he was exonerated. I don't want to play this game, but if you do then here we go:

Do you really want someone who associated with corrupt politicians and took $112K and other favors from a corrupt businessman as your president?

He associated with them - that means McCain must be a corruption sympathizer!

[ddr]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

THIS:



judging mccain for talking about obama's terrorist past instead of focusing on the economy. when he suspended his campaign to focus on the economy, you guys slammed him. obama only said: ill let the congress take care of it, im sure they can (right, how long did it take them and what else did they have to add to make it pass?)
also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.

you seriously think McCain or Obama had anything to do with this bill passing besides their 2 votes in the senate?

wow...