Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[davetlv]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

If history is no proof what is???

History is the understanding of past events, you were clearly talking about the present, in which you claimed that Israel would only be happy when she has destroyed her Arab neighbors - you still have not offered any shred of evidence that this is what Israel wants.

They actually argue that Israel should not exist and this is a classic example of twisting the words they use. If someone is anti - Zionist he is not necessarily anti-Semitic.

And anyway...Iran has called for Israel destruction and Israel has not called for Iran' destruction right?

On 26th October 2005, IRIB News, an English-language subsidiary of the state-controlled Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting ran a story on Iranian Presidents speech to the"World without Zionism" conference in Asia. The story was entitled: Ahmadinejad: Israel must be wiped off the map.

You are so blinded by your personal beliefs that they have clouded your thought. Of course I can't prove that EVERYONE in Israel wants to sort out the Arabs in the region...just like you can't prove that everyone in Iran wants to destroy Israel.

Really, and what do you know of my personal beliefs?

I never asked you to prove that Everyone in Israel, i asked you to back up a statement which you made clearly about Israels political leadership and its intentions towards it neighbors. Like wise I have never claimed that Iranians want to destroy Israel, just their leadership.

What I can prove is that historically speaking no real attempt has ever been made on Israel's part to secure peace with the Palestinians or that there was never any real popular support for a two state solution.

Following the 1967 war, eight Arab nations gathered in Khartoum and issued their “Three No’s.” No peace with Israel . No recognition of Israel . No negotiations with Israel.

Since then Israel has ceded territory to both Egypt and Jordan for peace treaties.

In 2000 Yasser Arafat rejected a deal that would have allowed them everything they were asking for, including East Jerusalem. According to US President Clinton "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace."

So please don;t tell me my country hasn't gone out of its way to bring an to the situation between it and its Palestinian neigbors!

I just think its really sad...the Jewish people were given land to settle in and create a state in large part due to all the prosecution they have experianced around the world and then what do they do...Thye create camps for refugees and war against the people that lived on the same land. Just goes to show that people really don't learn anything from their experiances.

It also shows that you have absolutely no knowledge about what your are talking about.

Firstly, Israel were not given anything - for over 3500 years there as been a Jewish presence in Israel - so don't you dare tell me we were given anything.

Camps were not created by Israel but by the UN in the earlier 50's, additionally you should know that in Israel (and for this I am not incorporating the West Bank) Israeli Arabs have full equality within Israeli society. With over 10% of the Knesset membership, Israeli Arabs have the exact same right in Israel as Israeli Jews have.

[Shpira]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Firstly, Israel were not given anything - for over 3500 years there as been a Jewish presence in Israel - so don't you dare tell me we were given anything.

Camps were not created by Israel but by the UN in the earlier 50's, additionally you should know that in Israel (and for this I am not incorporating the West Bank) Israeli Arabs have full equality within Israeli society. With over 10% of the Knesset membership, Israeli Arabs have the exact same right in Israel as Israeli Jews have.

yeah ok rofl I have nothing to say to you...you built your own nation from nothing even though Israel was under British protectorate and Arabs are just a bunch of crazies deluding themselves about how they are treated...and all those dead Arabs are not really dead..

You were effectivly given Israel by the British. The Jewish people may have fought for it through lobbying and later through terrorism but you were given it. The British controled the influx of the jews from Europe and they (along with the French) effectivly created the borders of all middle eastern nations. If they had not controled it i.e. if it was an Arab state at the time you think that such a great influx of Jews would be allowed? Don't be silly...you were given it. The original Zionists were offered land in Africa originally but they rejected it and in the end they were given Israel...the tipping point being WW2.
For 3500 years there was a pressence thats great...there are ethnic Gypsies all over Europe for thousands of years but they haven't been given a state.

pre ww1 there was less than 60k jews in Palestine comapred to some 750k Arabs so don't tell me you were not given the land...no the arabs left of their own free will and the jews came to take their place right?

1930 - 175k jews vs 840 k arabs
and then in 1934-1935 it was going up at a rate of 60 k a month...you were not given a state my ass.

It is now very clear that you have some of your facts very wrong...thats probably why you think history is not important in determining the shape of the present and the future.


As for the Arab- Israeli wars...what the hell do you expect lol. A foreign people come and occupy your holy land... how the hell would you react? Its their holy land as much as it is your...it is a shame both sides generally fail to understand that. The process of dehumanization of the "other" is very strong on both sides.

Einstain was so right when he said that should Zionism "be unabel to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with Arabs, we shall have learned nothing from our 2000 years of suffering and will deserve our fate"

The Jewish people should have made attempts to create a two state system from the start but this NEVER happened.

I am not going to write essays for you to evaluate as far as I am concerned my oppinion is that should Israel attack Iran its going to suffer heavy casualties ... no one will help openly and the UN will end up having to come in and control a peace settlement. As a result of this many people will understand that it is Israel who is responding to provocation and attacking first so they will turn against it...in oppinion that is...and then Israel is screwed. Without the west its really not much at all...


p.s. the only real attempt to make peace with the Arab's are the Camp David accords and those were signed with huge US pressure...

[Shpira]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

something to read on the main topic of this thread

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17goldberg.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=jeffrey%20goldberg&st=cse&scp=4

[Kamal]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

this was definitely an interesting opinion/read for the most part.

yeah ok rofl I have nothing to say to you...you built your own nation from nothing even though Israel was under British protectorate and Arabs are just a bunch of crazies deluding themselves about how they are treated...and all those dead Arabs are not really dead..

You were effectivly given Israel by the British. The Jewish people may have fought for it through lobbying and later through terrorism but you were given it. The British controled the influx of the jews from Europe and they (along with the French) effectivly created the borders of all middle eastern nations. If they had not controled it i.e. if it was an Arab state at the time you think that such a great influx of Jews would be allowed? Don't be silly...you were given it. The original Zionists were offered land in Africa originally but they rejected it and in the end they were given Israel...the tipping point being WW2.
For 3500 years there was a pressence thats great...there are ethnic Gypsies all over Europe for thousands of years but they haven't been given a state.

pre ww1 there was less than 60k jews in Palestine comapred to some 750k Arabs so don't tell me you were not given the land...no the arabs left of their own free will and the jews came to take their place right?

1930 - 175k jews vs 840 k arabs
and then in 1934-1935 it was going up at a rate of 60 k a month...you were not given a state my ass.

It is now very clear that you have some of your facts very wrong...thats probably why you think history is not important in determining the shape of the present and the future.


As for the Arab- Israeli wars...what the hell do you expect lol. A foreign people come and occupy your holy land... how the hell would you react? Its their holy land as much as it is your...it is a shame both sides generally fail to understand that. The process of dehumanization of the "other" is very strong on both sides.

Einstain was so right when he said that should Zionism "be unabel to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with Arabs, we shall have learned nothing from our 2000 years of suffering and will deserve our fate"

The Jewish people should have made attempts to create a two state system from the start but this NEVER happened.

I am not going to write essays for you to evaluate as far as I am concerned my oppinion is that should Israel attack Iran its going to suffer heavy casualties ... no one will help openly and the UN will end up having to come in and control a peace settlement. As a result of this many people will understand that it is Israel who is responding to provocation and attacking first so they will turn against it...in oppinion that is...and then Israel is screwed. Without the west its really not much at all...


p.s. the only real attempt to make peace with the Arab's are the Camp David accords and those were signed with huge US pressure...

[runningman]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

guess who is back in Iran!!! Mahmoud Ahmadinejad!!!!

Oh ya Israel is going to bomb Iran.. Take it to the bank.

[Miroslav]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

what a shocker that that dictator found a way to "win".

[THE_LIGHT]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

since you guy's are on this topic.dont know if any one has posted this -->http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...08450811690589

[THE_LIGHT]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

what a shocker that that dictator found a way to "win".

lol

[runningman]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

how do you think Israel will deal with this Miro??

[Yao]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

^^ I don't have anything to prove , one of the reasons I haven't engaged with you in these forums before is your blindness to all bar your own viewpoint. I think that was probably a good strategy You could put mountains of evidence in front of you and you would be blind to it. !!


Btw Knickers totally untwisted

I can only strongly recommend reading into history on this part of [ms] and you would NEVER make a statement like this. I've been engaged in more than one discussion in the past on the Middle-Eastern situation and have always found Dave to be not only just pro-Israel (nothing surprising here) but alse very critical of his own country's dealings as well.

Everything he has stated in this thread he can back with viable sources, unlike most other posters in here. Don't confuse a healthy dose of love for someone's homeground with blind adoration.

Same goes for Sphira by the way...just read carefully and breathe again before typing out a response.

[davetlv]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

First Shipra accept my apologies, not been around for a few weeks, been a b it busy making sure our reactors are all working, just in case you know. . . . . .

yeah ok rofl I have nothing to say to you...you built your own nation from nothing even though Israel was under British protectorate and Arabs are just a bunch of crazies deluding themselves about how they are treated...and all those dead Arabs are not really dead..

British protectorate? Really? Whilst the British only took 'control' of what is now Israel and Jordan after the demise of the Ottoman empire after the WWI, after the Ottomans had become increasingly hostile towards the Arabs under their 'rule' during the dying days of the war.

But since obviously you want to focus on the British rule, its under British protection that led to the Hebron massacre of 1929. Its also under so-called British protection that jews were being turned away and sent back to Nazi occupied Europe in the run up to the war. After all lets no forget that the League of Nation actually ratified the balfour Decleration, whilst it was the British who under Arab pressure refused to let Europes persecuted Jews into the land the world had set aside for them. Such great British protection.

You were effectivly given Israel by the British.

Read up on the Balfour Decleration, then the League of Nation ratification.

Cos clearly you have no idea what you are talking about as shown in the following from you.

The Jewish people may have fought for it through lobbying and later through terrorism but you were given it. The British controled the influx of the jews from Europe and they (along with the French) effectivly created the borders of all middle eastern nations. If they had not controled it i.e. if it was an Arab state at the time you think that such a great influx of Jews would be allowed? Don't be silly...you were given it. The original Zionists were offered land in Africa originally but they rejected it and in the end they were given Israel...the tipping point being WW2.
For 3500 years there was a pressence thats great...there are ethnic Gypsies all over Europe for thousands of years but they haven't been given a state.

You do remember what we now call Jordan was also part of the British Mandate - and was meant to be part of the orginial two state solution. But in reality the Arabs got their land whilst the Jew didnt. Also try not ignore in your reading that the whole frigging area was split up by the winning allies and nation states were created where pre-WWI they didn't exist.

Syria - created by France in 1936

TransJordan - created by British in April 1921 - Jordan than founded in 1946

Iraq - Indepandance granted only in 1932 from UK occupation (after fall of Ottoman empire)

During the rule of the Ottoman Empire, for 500 years, these territories were nothing more than tribal waste lands controlled by the Empire - Nation states did not exist.

The Jews were, in the carving up of the region, offered a slither of land, a land where there had been a Jewish presence before either Christianity or Islam raised their heads.

But considering we were given it, as you say, maybe you would like to explain how during the 30's and 40's when Jews were being killed on mass in concentration camps they were being turned away from the one place the world had said was theres?

pre ww1 there was less than 60k jews in Palestine comapred to some 750k Arabs so don't tell me you were not given the land...no the arabs left of their own free will and the jews came to take their place right?

Actually the figures for pre-WWI incorporate what became of Transjordan, where the vast majority lived. Do some more reading before you embarass yourself.

It is now very clear that you have some of your facts very wrong...thats probably why you think history is not important in determining the shape of the present and the future.

And its very clear that you get you information from the David Duke school of Historical revisionism.

As for the Arab- Israeli wars...what the hell do you expect lol. A foreign people come and occupy your holy land...

Indeed, the Britsh occupiers were a foreign people, your point is what?

how the hell would you react? Its their holy land as much as it is your...it is a shame both sides generally fail to understand that. The process of dehumanization of the "other" is very strong on both sides.

Again, read, read and read somemore. Please show me anywhere in the Quran that mentions Jerusalem as holy land? Come on? I'll give you a few weeks on this one, you'll need. And if you find some, which you wont, maybe you would like to explaine how under Ottoman rule and then Jordanian the mosque that was built on top of the Temple Mount was left in ruins. Comple and utter. And how the Muslim world has only started bitching about Jerusalem since 1967?

The Jewish people should have made attempts to create a two state system from the start but this NEVER happened.

OK - listen very carefully, two states were created, Israel and Transjordan as per the League of Nations Mandate! That said. . . .

Again, for fucks sake don't show your ignorance. Israel offered back all lands won in the Six day war for normalisation of relationship with all arab states, the answer was the 3 no's from the Khartoum summit of Septmber 1967.

Before the 6 day war there was no-concept as a two state solution for the West Bank was controlled by Jordan whilst Gaza was controlled by Egypt. Jordan only relinquished its claim on the territory in 1988 - thats right 1988.

But as you're talking about a two state solution, after Oslo in 2000 Arafat was offered everything he was asking for and more and he rejected it. And Olmert offered again last year and it was rejected.


Its clear that you lack even basic knowledge of the area - that aside, do I think Israel has treated those in the West Bank and Gaza well, not by any standard, but my distaste for the actions of my government don't allow me to allow idiots like you trying to re-write the history of the region.

[Shiva]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Mmm...nice topic going on here.

Didn't have the time to read it all, but today Natanyahu speech, a kinda 180 degrees shift in policy... and the president of Iran gets re-elected....and in Lebanon we have juts finished with elections.....so many things happening here. But at the end I don't think any bombing pf Iran will occur, whether Israel or US, none will be allowed under Obama's admin...I don't think so, coz thats not the answer.

[davetlv]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Mmm...nice topic going on here.

Didn't have the time to read it all, but today Natanyahu speech, a kinda 180 degrees shift in policy... and the president of Iran gets re-elected....and in Lebanon we have juts finished with elections.....so many things happening here. But at the end I don't think any bombing pf Iran will occur, whether Israel or US, none will be allowed under Obama's admin...I don't think so, coz thats not the answer.

Hi Shiva

Hope all is well in Lebanon at the moment!

There is no shift in policy - Natanyahu had to accept previous agreements - and considering the road map talks about a two state solution, how is there a shift in policy? The media, since his election, have made this out to be an issue when its not - even the odious Lieberman recognises that Israel must follow the road map.

I also don't think Israel will bomb Iran, but I believe it wants the world to think it will, so the whole issue of Irans nuclear capabilities stays on the table - personally speaking my only objection to is it that Iran is a signatory to the NPT - should they, like Pakistan did, remove themselve for the treaty, then there is not legal reason for them not to follow some type of nuke programme.

[Yao]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

I was waiting for that long post of yours to arrive Dave. What took you so long?

[davetlv]

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Did you not read my first line - been busy making sure the reactors are on line! LOL

Been a bit manic these past weeks Yao - making plans for my return home and getting my blog of the ground!

Hope alls well with you man!