Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

[runningman]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

it isn't just 4 million people miro. It's restaurant owners it's retail. Believe me that number is way to small. That is a propaganda number so we don't feel bad about it when it fails and we can keep giving money to the banks.

Also they haven't failed to the consumers!! They have had a couple bad years because of forcing money to go to retired folks rather then spending it on product development. Again you are very flawed in your arguments.

So are you saying that all pensions should be dropped?? So lets fire them and take away the pensions of retired folks. Wow you are one cut throat man Miro.

[Miroslav]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

it isn't just 4 million people miro. It's restaurant owners it's retail. Believe me that number is way to small. That is a propaganda number so we don't feel bad about it when it fails and we can keep giving money to the banks.

1. The US automakers are going to lay off a huge chunk of their workforce anyways, even if they get the bailout. And so will all of their suppliers. What do you think is in the plans they are proposing to Congress today?

Also they haven't failed to the consumers!! They have had a couple bad years because of forcing money to go to retired folks rather then spending it on product development. Again you are very flawed in your arguments.

You're hilarious. You think consumers are happy with the Big 3 automakers? If my arguments are so flawed, then why have Big 3's market shares been plummetting for over 20 years now?

Collective Big 3 US Share in 1990: 71.4%
Collective Big 3 US Share in 2004: 58.6%
Collective Big 3 US Share in Dec 2007: 51.8%
Collective Big 3 US Share in Oct 2008: 46.5%

sources:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Big-Three-Auto-Makers-Compared/story.aspx?guid=%7BAEEA6066-8248-4488-9DBC-C5630C1C17C9%7D

http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosinsider/0501/06/A01-50668.htm

So are you saying that all pensions should be dropped?? So lets fire them and take away the pensions of retired folks. Wow you are one cut throat man Miro.

are you on crack? When did I say anything about pensions?

The economy is already losing jobs right and left. Millions of people are going to lose their jobs next year, and we can't stop it. So what's your point?

[runningman]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

1. When GM, Chrysler, and Ford get their bailout money, what do you think the first thing is that they will start to do? They will reduce production, close dealerships, and lay off a ton of their workforce. That's what's in the plans they are proposing to Congress. And then all of their suppliers will lay off a bunch of their workforces, too.

2. We're already losing hundreds of thousands of jobs in other industries and restaurant owners and retail are already affected. And in 2009 we will probably lose millions of jobs in other industries and it will be even worse. So what's your point? You want to bail all of them out, too?


You're hilarious. You think consumers are happy with the Big 3? Look at GM, for instance: their market share has been on a steady decline for the past THIRTY YEARS. How do you explain that?


are you on crack? When did I say anything about pensions?

You kill me sometimes Miro with your statements. They were the leader in the industry until last year when Toyota took over. What do you think the big three will do when all these baby boomers want their pensions?? You see Toyota hasn't been employing millions upon millions of people for 100 years. They haven't run into pension problems like the big 3 have. The first thing that will happen when they go bankrupt will be is to cut the pensions in order to save money to put money into R and D. Jeez I guess I will have to explain everything to you.

So whether you realized you are against pensions or not your statements of "let them go bankrupt" what you are really saying is that pensioners should go fuck themselves and the US should loose it's backbone of manufacturing. Hmm maybe all the old big 3 employees/retirees should get into banking since that is where all them money is going.

here is a great interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyO4q3C4f_s&eurl=http://www.infowars.com/?p=6338

[Miroslav]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

You kill me sometimes Miro with your statements. They were the leader in the industry until last year when Toyota took over.

lol...umm hello: Did you not JUST see the chart above that shows they have been losing market share SINCE 1990 (and actually earlier)? That means Honda and Toyota have been beating Big 3 each year for decades now - they've been stealing their customers. In other words, the Big 3 basically suck more and more at getting people to want to buy their product.

The first thing that will happen when they go bankrupt will be is to cut the pensions in order to save money to put money into R and D. Jeez I guess I will have to explain everything to you.

So whether you realized you are against pensions or not your statements of "let them go bankrupt" what you are really saying is that pensioners should go fuck themselves and the US should loose it's backbone of manufacturing. Hmm maybe all the old big 3 employees/retirees should get into banking since that is where all them money is going.

Well then, here's a news flash for you: The Big 3 will fire people and cut pensions and benefits no matter what. They have to in order to survive long term, even if they get a bailout.

United Auto Workers President Ron Gettelfinger said the union would allow General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co. and Chrysler to delay billions of dollars in payments to a retiree healthcare trust and suspend a controversial jobs bank that pays laid-off workers. The union also would consider other cost-cutting changes, he said.

http://www.latimes.com/business/careers/work/la-fi-autos4-2008dec04,0,7325276.story

When times are bad and companies do poorly, jobs and benefits get cut. It sucks, but that's how it goes. There are lots of other companies today that are having to fire tons of people, cut pensions, etc. and it sucks for them too - hell, I might be one of them next year...but I don't hear you crying over any of them?.. If you work, I'm still going to guess that you work for one of the Big 3.

[runningman]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

hey sure man. It isn't your grandfather or mother loosing their pension who cares right? Hell they have only built your country with their bare hands let'em burn eh?? I am glad we had this discussion now i know you are a very cold person. Get used to this

http://washingtonindependent.com/20889/video-the-cold-face-of-evictions

My point is this:

If you are going to bailout Citi and AIG you have to bail out the big 3. If you don't bailout Citi and AIG then obviously don't bail anyone out. I am not for bailing out anybody. BUT if you are going to bailout rich bankers that got us into this mess then you have to bailout the big three plain and simple. What is $34 Billion dollars when you are talking about an $8 Trillion mess honestly....

and please stop with the bashing. I thought we cleared that air already. I am not blind. Just as you are not an idiot. so please be polite lets try to keep MS classy.

[88Mariner]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

The Big Three have no right to demand that taxpayers risk money on them when even private investors won’t.This is to say, private investors think these three are so far down the well that even long term contracting would not save them.

The UAW and their members are complicit in the downfall of these three companies, and they have the chutzpah to bang on the doors of Congress and demand a temporary cure to a wound they forced open through...in your words...greed. Why don't the Unions bail the fucking companies out? If there is a first line of who-owes-who here, the first pockets the government should pick are all the union officials and then the employees who fought to hang the automakers up on the ropes.

You see, these union workers were greedy enough to demand wages wildly inflated to that which the market commanded. To turn profits, the Big 3 necessarily had to raise the prices of their poorly-produced autos; the consequence was that this enabled other car companies to make greater improvements in their market shares because they were able to cut costs and produce better cars at cheaper prices.

SO

why not demand 6,520 dollars from each employee and bail themselves out?

[Miroslav]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

and please stop with the bashing. I thought we cleared that air already. I am not blind. Just as you are not an idiot. so please be polite lets try to keep MS classy.

Sorry. I just have never before seen someone look at a graph of long-term plummeting market shares and conclude that business is strong!

I think the automakers will end up getting their bailout - and will still slash pensions and jobs. I don't wish for anyone to lose their job or their benefits - hell, I wish we weren't in this recession, for that matter. But we are and I'm afraid there is no way to avoid it. All I know is: if we bail out the Big 3, then why not the steel makers...the airlines...the technology companies...the retail sector? The entire nation is struggling, and you unfortunately just can't bail out the entire nation. I think the big banks were a different case than manufacturing businesses, but we've already been through that a thousand times.

But now seriously...I can't keep up with this anymore I already have like a dozen page-long posts in this thread, and there is nothing more to say. Thank you, go in peace, good luck, and good night!

[chunky]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

why not demand 6,520 dollars from each employee and bail themselves out?

Most of my work mates have been forced to take a 17% drop in wages. We also have to take 50 days off work which will be unpaid. Which totals up over £6000. They are also paying employees who have worked for the company less than 1 year £6000 to leave the company before Christmas.

It isn't all bad though. They have made Jensen Button the first ever employee to be made Redundant. However they are now saving £400 Million by pulling out of Formula 1

[88Mariner]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

Most of my work mates have been forced to take a 17% drop in wages. We also have to take 50 days off work which will be unpaid. Which totals up over £6000. They are also paying employees who have worked for the company less than 1 year £6000 to leave the company before Christmas.

It isn't all bad though. They have made Jensen Button the first ever employee to be made Redundant. However they are now saving £400 Million by pulling out of Formula 1

As far as F1 goes, I'd say that this is an excellent decision. I'm the biggest race fan on this messageboard, and I am a big fan of Honda Racing (beyond F1, too). But my emotions aside, it all comes down to business at the end of the day.

I don't think F1 is redundant, but it was not integral to thier core business.

Wow, a responsible fiscal move by a automobile company. We must really be in trouble.

[runningman]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

GM dropped Tiger woods.. Does that count??

[88Mariner]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

GM dropped Tiger woods.. Does that count??

I'd say yes. That's a start. I'm not sure of the contract details, but if they dropped him, they either had to buy him out or will at least continue paying him for the duration of hte contract, which could be several years.

Also, dropping tiger woods really doesn't get to the heard of their problems.

But, drops of water do add up in a bucket i suppose.

[Kamal]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

I chuckled my ass off when they flew in on the first day and carpooled in energy savers the next. that sort of fake determination to "try and make a sincere effort" must be met with an outright rejection in saving their asses with the bail out. and save them from what? from creating even more inferior products? if they cant' deliver, they need to the exit door, not a bigger bank account to offer more failure.

I'm really curious tho (and I havent read the entire thread) but all this talk about bail out money to "rescue" them, what happens when they fail despite getting the money in effect, sinking not only with their companies, but with 34 billion of this great nations hard earned money from the working class. Shouldn't the CEOs be made to return every cent of the millions they milked over the years?

[toasty]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

Shouldn't the CEOs be made to return every cent of the millions they milked over the years?

That is the thing that is so frustrating for me about all of these bailouts. The money has been made by the few, but the debts are being borne by the many. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses. Even Karl Marx would find that fucked up.

[chunky]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

The situation at Honda UK is worsening. The company is using the current situation to try and push through Annualized Hours. We have been laid off for 50 days without pay (They Told The Media We Would Be Paid). If we agree to the annualised hours the company will pay us while we are off work. However we will have to pay them back in overtime. But we have to agree to up to 5 months of annualised hours. The company is also not agreeing to write any hours off after a set period of time. If we agree we will have toted up 50 days by the end of March. The company will be then able to force us to work every Saturday for one year just to pay off what is owed already. Anyone who leaves the company will have to pay back what is owed in full. The company cant afford the bad publicity of not paying us. The problem for me is many of my colleagues are so scared of not getting paid for 2 months they will agree to anything. I've told many of them they would be better of getting a loan for 2 months and claiming statutory benefits. They will be taking away our liberty but my colleagues just cant see it. If they side with the company we will all be fucked big time. The ramifications of this scare the shit out of me. Even talking about this could get me the sack. The company wants to be able to accrue 5 months worth of hours and have us pay them back very aggressively. If I leave the company my pension that I have paid into for 17 years will be frozen. But I may have little choice.

[runningman]

Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft

WOW... thanks for letting us in the details chunky. I didn't realize it was that bad over at Honda.. What Union does Honda have?