Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

[88Mariner]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20081211/ts_nm/us_usa_israel_iran

might as well have said, "until Iran detonates a nuclear weapon in Tel Aviv, we won't respond".

what a fucking, fucking, fucking, fucking, jackass. goddammit i'm pissed.

[toasty]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

This is honestly not because I'm an Obama fan, but I actually don't read it that way. I view it as him almost bringing the concept of MAD into the discussion for Iran -- "attack with nukes if you dare, but we'll point our arsenal at you if you do." There's nothing in here that I see that would suggest that the only event that would cause us to respond in Israel's defense is if they were under nuclear attack.

This also allows Israel to perpetuate this absurd little fiction that they might not have nukes themselves, even though everyone knows that they probably do. If we step up and say we've got their back from a nuclear standpoint, they don't have to further tip their hand in the interest of deterrence.

[88Mariner]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I guess you could read it as bringing up the concept of MAD, yet that does not preclude us from doing a damn thing about it w/o our nuclear weapons.

I mean, srsly, it's not like there is an incentive for martydom in that country. I mean, rly, not only would the destruction of isreal in a nuclear holocaust solve LOTS of religious conflict against the jews, but you know, it also rallys the muslim world against the united states for retaliation, and solidifies a megalomaniac like Ahmedinejad into perpetual islamic sainthood.

They win any which way yo slice the bread.

And who loses? Well, the global jewish population will be reduced to about 2 million, which is, for what its worth, making them an endangered species if you will. We lose a strong ally, secondly. And, we'd actually have to use nuclear weapons, a la 'in kind', which, if you ask me, Obama doesn't have the balls to do.

ah, ok. it's all about perpetuating an 'absurd fiction'. I'm not sure which book your reading, but it's pretty open that they do have them.

And let's clarify one other geo-strategic point: if Israel goes this alone, and, they do nuke the uranium plants, what stops Pakistan from responding 'in kind'? Again, checkmate against a people under a real threat, Americans and Israelis alike.

If you want MADness, do what Barack is suggesting.


Otherwise, a few LGB's should sort this out.

[toasty]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I have absolutely no idea what position you're even advocating anymore. My impression was that you took this as setting a policy that we wouldn't do shit to protect Israel unless and until Iran nuked them, and my reading of the article you cited is that it says nothing of the sort. I'm certainly not advocating the use of nuclear weapons against anyone.

[88Mariner]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

let me clarify: deterrence does not work against people who have nothing to lose and everything to gain by weaponized martyrdom.

thus, this policy won't deter Iran from using Nukes. To the contrary, it will produce the exact opposite results; the end of a democratic ally, the start of the end of a religion, and, with any response, nuclear or otherwise, there will be a greater threat to the United States and our allies by islamic fundamentalists for such a retaliation, of which, it appears, will involve the use of nuclear weapons (which I personally doubt BHO has the balls to use if it ever came to that....). And, if we do not back Israel on this, nothing prevents other fundamentalist groups and nations, like Pakistan, from directly assaulting Israel, potentially with nuclear weapons.

[runningman]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

so what are you saying Mariner. Should he sound like Bush and say that he won't let Iran get a nuclear bomb?? Israel has its own nukes.. they can take care of themselves. The US has to keep its nose out of other peoples business sometimes.

[thesightless]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

someone needs to bitchslap amen jihad next time he comes to the UN

[Localizer]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

dumbass move on Barack if he does it. Will only widen the rift and will hurt our image probably even more.

[88Mariner]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

dumbass move on Barack if he does it. Will only widen the rift and will hurt our image probably even more.

good thing sentiments can be healed over time. but so far as I know, dead people stay dead.

Look, it doesn't matter whether you're pro-israel, anti-israel, pro-iran, anti-iran, or any mixture in between. Allowing Iran to acquire nuclear weaponry, on its own, will result in massive losses of innocent lives on both sides of the equation. A simple bombardment of thier nuclear facilities will change this.

[Localizer]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

good thing sentiments can be healed over time. but so far as I know, dead people stay dead.

Look, it doesn't matter whether you're pro-israel, anti-israel, pro-iran, anti-iran, or any mixture in between. Allowing Iran to acquire nuclear weaponry, on its own, will result in massive losses of innocent lives on both sides of the equation. A simple bombardment of thier nuclear facilities will change this.

Many parts of Iran aren't exactly sharing fundamentalist ideas. What you're saying here is a little presumptuous. What would be the point in decimating a land holy to several religions, one of which being Islam? If the mantra for Iran is that they have nothing to lose, why isn't the revolutionary guard attacking Israel? Is it not antithetical for a nuke to act as the martyr as opposed to the followers of the fundamental aspect of Islam who want to be martyred by actually being involved in the killings?

As for pakistan, india will take care of them.

[dig72]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

What business does the US have in attacking Iran? Why does the US need to do the dirty work of another nations?

If Israel is so concerned about Iran's nuclear threat, than let her be the one who calls for war and drop the first bomb. Israel has hundreds of nuclear bombs and can defend herself if need be.

[thesightless]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

Many parts of Iran aren't exactly sharing fundamentalist ideas. What you're saying here is a little presumptuous. What would be the point in decimating a land holy to several religions, one of which being Islam? If the mantra for Iran is that they have nothing to lose, why isn't the revolutionary guard attacking Israel? Is it not antithetical for a nuke to act as the martyr as opposed to the followers of the fundamental aspect of Islam who want to be martyred by actually being involved in the killings?

As for pakistan, india will take care of them.

not that i advocate fucking anything up any more.. but

why do something in the open that you can do behind closed doors with money and other people. the UN troops have found countless of iranian sourced weapons in iraq and afghanistan over the last few years. they are fighting us as we speak, but instead of earing a uniform, they are letting other do it, and they are doing it quiertly.

not everyone is the US where they wear unfirms, and openly make themselves known. they do it right. sadly. they fight us in civies. so we cant tell, and they calim innocence. innocence with a household of minutions.

[Localizer]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

not that i advocate fucking anything up any more.. but

why do something in the open that you can do behind closed doors with money and other people. the UN troops have found countless of iranian sourced weapons in iraq and afghanistan over the last few years. they are fighting us as we speak, but instead of earing a uniform, they are letting other do it, and they are doing it quiertly.

not everyone is the US where they wear unfirms, and openly make themselves known. they do it right. sadly. they fight us in civies. so we cant tell, and they calim innocence. innocence with a household of minutions.

From what I recall, that was all conjecture and allegations. Meanwhile, what wasn't conjecture or allegations was the missing cache of weapons from the US military not once, but twice and along the lines of a few millions dollars worth.

[toasty]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I'm still not seeing the part in this article or anywhere else where anyone says that we're just going to allow Iran to have nukes and then deal with it after the fact. The US and probably all countries have policies in place for dealing with unfriendly nations/forces that are both reactive and proactive, and the pronouncement of one does not imply the abandonment of the other.

[88Mariner]

Re: Barack Obama: Israel's Nuclear Umbrella???

I'm still not seeing the part in this article or anywhere else where anyone says that we're just going to allow Iran to have nukes and then deal with it after the fact. The US and probably all countries have policies in place for dealing with unfriendly nations/forces that are both reactive and proactive, and the pronouncement of one does not imply the abandonment of the other.

no, the article says, if you decimate israel, we will decimate you. that means, by implication, that if you get a bomb, and use it, we will use our arsenal against you. sure, i guess it doesn't explicitly say it, but then, does it necessarily need to be explicitly said?

If we were going to do anything about their facilities, it would have already happened. This doesn't need to be a war with iran. it takes a few well placed lgb's on that facility, and it's largely resolved. evein if Iran isn't building a nuclear weapon, but simply making enough nuclear material to be used in dirty bombs....is that not enough to say, "let's sort this out right quick"?


imagine, for a moment, that iran puts a nuclear bomb in downtown baghdad. let the iraqis sort this one out. is the standard by which we cast one of our own out by himself based on whether he has a few nuclear weapons?