IDF invade Gaza Strip

[Localizer]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

you know, with all those brilliant scientists and awesome technology israel has, you'd think they could come up with some sort of air fortress, or a dam bubble over the whole state, or even better yet, some anti-rocket weaponry. Then you can just go about your daily routine not having to worry about Hamas or Hizbollah.

Tell you this though, no amount of defensive cherry-picking is going to solve anything. All israel did is step on another ant hill and piss off the colony. The only solution really is for an annhilation of the other since they both can't seem to figure out how to get along. That or make whatever land israel occupies into a similar zone like north/south koreas dmz and just mine the hell out of it.

In the end, it probably won't matter though. There's always a few people at the top that are probably playing this as a game, and as such, there will be casualties. It's good business selling weapons. Speaking of which, they caught the supposed 'merchant of death.'

[dig72]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Tell you this though, no amount of defensive cherry-picking is going to solve anything. All israel did is step on another ant hill and piss off the colony.

This is obvious and must've been already established/known to the Israelis prior to bombing/invasion. But they went ahead with it anyway.

The only solution really is for an annhilation of the other since they both can't seem to figure out how to get along.

There is a solution and it's the single/two state solution.

Are there any other workable alternatives to this?

In the end, it probably won't matter though. There's always a few people at the top that are probably playing this as a game, and as such, there will be casualties. It's good business selling weapons. '

Agreed

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva

First off Sheba is a transliteration. . . .

Secondly, at this moment in time, according to the UN, that land mass is in dispute between Israel and Syria - fact.

Therefore the purpose of Hizbollah is what exactly? And why have the UN and Lebanese refused, thats right, refused to disarm Hizbolla and continue to allow Iran to arm them through Syria?

I'm no expert, but I'm also not an idiot - I tend to only engage in what I know and not what I think I know - so wanna tell me again how Sheba belongs to Lebanon and how big nasty Israel is provoking Hizbollah, who continue to be in contravention to UNSCR 1771 with the support of your government.

Dave, it took more more than 1/2 hr to type my reply to the hizballah armament issue, please go back few pages and check, too long to re-type.
And I add:
Whether it is fine with the world or not, with yrs hizballah has shifted from being a simple armed resistance to becoming a major Lebanese political party. Lebanese demography is religiously composed of 17 sects, and it happens that the shi'a community is a major chunk of it. It is a fact, a reality that everyone has to deal with, whether internally or externally to Lebanon.

The Shebaa fams is a Lebanese (claim), and this will be solved soon at the UN.
After all these years of conflict, now the main issue between Lebanon and Israel remains this spit of land called "Shebaa" farms. Once this is solved, hizballah will probably shift from being a military party to a social party.
Israel should just not give them any reason to act as a resistance party, resistance to occupation, Israel's occupation.

You say Israel is not occupying any Lebanese lands? Ok, lets skip this Shebaa one coz we already spoke very much about it, it is now in the UN's hands and will/should be solved soon.

But you say Israel is not occupying any Lebanese lands? Well Dave occupation has many forms, and invading a country's sovereignty on a daily basis IS a form of occupation.
You talk about the resolution 1771, and I talk about the resolution 1701.
Yes, hizballah should be disarmed, but AFTER that ALL FOREIGN armies have left from its lands. Hizballah is Lebanese, his is on HIS TERRITORY, he is not an invading force but a defensive ones.
However Syria and Israel are NOT Lebanese and they should get out, simply! No nuance, no misunderstanding, crystal clear!!!!

For 30 yrs the former USSR & the US have been fighting a proxy war through Syria & Israel...but where?? On the occupied Syrian Golan heights? NO!!!! They did it on the Lebanese soil.
Lebanon has been victim for so many years of other people's wars: When Syria & Israel wana fix their differences they don't do it face-to-face, they do it through proxy on Lebanon. We even still bear the price of having 400.000 Palestinian refugees in Palestinian camps, what about these ones? Who takes care of them?
Why is Israel denying the return of the '67 refugees? In the name of what? That is their land!

Ok, now lets go back to 1701, which says ALL FOREIGN ARMY SHOULD LEAVE LEBANON!!!

Syria left...but Israel are still in, and I am not talking about Shebaa farms this time (since it is a territorial issue), I am referring to your warplanes that violates the Lebanese sovreignty every day!!! ISRAEL OCCUPIES LEBANESE AIRSPACE, clearer now? Every damn day we hear your war planes over our heads.
Ah, Israel considers this legitimate in order to check on the Lebanese what they are doing. And the West is making the mistake of not selling the Lebanese gov planes to defend its air space, neither supplying them with missiles to shoot them down.
Practically the Lebanese airspace is the backyard of Israel's space...it is like a walk in the park for the Israeli Air Force. Yea, Israel keeps on occupying part of Lebanon, acts as if its backyard, and Lebanon should just shut up, disarm hizballah and let the Israelis do whatever they want....NO, I am sorry.

And to make things more complicated: Russia has decided to step in and they will supply the Lebanese Air Force with Migs to defend its airspace, the pilots are being formed as we type.... Of course this will not be a match against the all-mighty Israeli air force, the point is not here, the point is that Lebanon has every right to defend itself or its territory.

As far as I am concerned, I am neither an Israeli sympathizer nor a Syrian or a Palestinian one: I am a LEBANESE citizen and I sympathize with my cause only!

Sick and tired of seeing Lebanon being occupied and raped by higher powers that end up playing the victims themselves!

1701 (in UN terms): SYRIA & ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON.

And Dave, please stop this charade about Syria arming hizballah, guys just move on!
Israel has armed Lebanese groups for years to fight their proxy war against Syria, just as Syria did as well. To me both of them are fucked up hypocrite countries!!!

Another reason why nobody is leaving Lebanon prosper in peace?

I give you one: ECONOMY

Lebanon has a VERY highly educated class in rate and in its population, it is part of the Lebanese society and culture: 1/3 of its inhabitants are students (even under war and bombardments). It is common for a Lebanese citizen to hold a dual university degrees from the best universities in the region (Mainly American and French universities). Most Lebanese master fluently at least 3 languages since their early age (French, English and Arabic---and recently the Armenian has been added as the 4th national language). Also, most Lebanese hold a second nationality or citizenship, most of them from the west (Europe/Canada/Australia/US), and this why you see many Lebanese with European-type of faces and life-styles...
Lebanon is known to be a major player in commerce and trade since the early ages of the phoenicians, which invented the alphabet, ships for trade and navale routes etc etc... It is a historic fact that still exists very much nowadays. Besides, Lebanon is strategically located between 3 continents Asia/Africa/Europe, strategic route to trade. Lebanon is the only country that has WATER in the region, our water is like the Saudi oil and even more precious (which Israel is stealing btw).
By its religious diversities, Lebanon is the only democracy in the Arab world that has a christian President of the Republic, the only place in the Arab world where you can live western-style, gamble, have fun and enjoy as if you were int any western country, even more!
In just 40 minutes time you can move from the beach where you are swimming and get to the closest mountain top and start skiing!

Our younger educated generations are continuously fleeing the country looking for a better future in Europe/US or Canada...we are loosing all our brains and middle class somehow because of Israel and Syria, in fact the Lebanese living abroad are 12 million, while the ones living in Lebanon are barely 4 million!!!

If only Lebanon is left alone to prosper, it would eat for breakfast all the surrounding economies, I MEAN FOR BREAKFAST and I weight my words:
Lebanon has just gone out from 30yrs of civil conflict, foreign conflicts on its lands, occupation, destruction, genocides...U NAME IT, and yet u should come take a peak of how the Lebanese have re-built their economy, cities, and infrastructures in just a few years, in practically no time. And hey, it is also very important to point out that Lebanon does not have any in industry, we do not produce anything, NOTHING! We just produce brains...
All our economy is based on a strong financial system, we have more banks than groceries...Lebanon is a fiscal paradise, just like Monte Carlo.
Lebanon has been rebuilding and doing all this within the chaos that its neighbors are inflicting on it...

The world propaganda always show the resistance side of Lebanon, the one of the hizballah etc etc...but this not ALL of Lebanon, it is a part of it only, the part that the media is interested in. Lebanon is much more than that, its a magical country.

Obviously too many reasons why this amazing and beautiful country (Lebanon) shouldn't prosper in peace, he is not an easy little neighbor to deal with!

1701 (in UN terms): SYRIA & ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON (full stop)

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

For the reader, and whoever is following this hot topic:

Within the context of the Israelo-Arab conflict, I am not picking facts against Israel only, or Dave as an Israeli user on MS, not at all. Had there been some Palestinian user, or a Syrian user participating in this thread i would have picked on them as well, coz there is a LOT to tell too.

As a Lebanese, here are the thoughts on a broader pic of the conflict.
Sorry to put it in this way, but it's the best expression and example I found:

Lebanon has been gang-raped for so many years by the following states (or people), each one in his turn and in his own way:

1- Palestinians: we hosted them as refugees after the 67 war and they tried to implement in Lebanon what they failed to do in Jordan: take over our country in order to get back at Israel etc etc.... and the destruction of Lebanon started.

2- Syria: we invited them to appease the civil war (turned religious war) rooted in the palestinian cause (refugees). The gents felt at tease and occupied Lebanon for 30 yrs etc etc... Lebanon still has missing people locked since 20+ years in Syrian jails without trials, just like American POWs went missing in vietnam.

3- Israel: also rooted within the palestinian cause, they followed the palestinian refugees/fighters inside Lebanon by invading Lebanon twice etc etc...well here we have atrocities committed which I dont wana mention (excluding 2006 war).

Yes, and the list is very long...

[runningman]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

look at this crap.

http://www.thelondondailynews.com/blackout-gaza-p-2099.html

BBC not allowed to talk about the gaza situation

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Yea, no surprise! They have some things to hide

Day 12:
The body count is now at 700, of which 300 Children and 100 women....
Probably they were caught shooting some Kassams or Grad rockets...

Don't even dare to watch the news coz it makes me feel like

[ganjamo]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

If the terrorists wouldnt hide behind innocent women and children this wouldnt happen.

This confilct will never end until the religious sense of "if you dont think what i think you are my enemy" stops.

Here in south america we are also feeling the heat. Chavez made the israeli embassador leave the country a few days ago. Thats not nice lol.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

If the terrorists wouldn't hide behind innocent women and children this wouldnt happen.

^ I agree in this as a principle, but as it turned out Gaza strip is VERY highly dense in population. And besides, The UNRWA schools are not part of Palestine (or Israel), they part of the UN and should not have been bombed:

Numbers talk: 700 bodies, more than 50% of them are women and children!

When the Israelis want to bomb a civilian area to the ground (I mean no one building is left standing) they drop leaflets inviting the residents to leave their homes so that they make less casualties. This is very much appreciated of course in order to spare civilian lives.

Yesterday they dropped leaflets on the southern border of the Gaza strip, border with Egypt (Ra-Fah), coz they suspect it of being a smuggling area filled with depots of weapons.
Fine...very much appreciated for letting the civilian leave their homes (they were given only 3 hrs time to pack and disappear)....but where to go?? In a place as small as Gaza strip, where bombs are being dropped from its northern to its southern border, where does the IDF expect civilians (mainly women and children) to hide?

Well there are very very few places where they can seek to shelter from bombs:
And the United Nations is one of them...... but the IDF BOMBS the U.N. as well!!!!
So where are the civilians suppose to seek refuge?!

For now the war remains on the suburbs of towns and cities of Gaza, the IDF knows that the heat will turn up on them when their soldiers will have to street-fight in the city streets, the urban ones; Easy to position tanks and planes and start bombing right and left, lest see how things will turn on the stage 3 of this war: take over the cities!

And for the readers: maybe you are not aware that, although IDF is sooo powerful, Israel's weakest point is the public opinion, just like any democracy that goes to war.
Syria or Iraq (previous) for instance, can afford to loose hundreds of thousands of soldiers, no questions asked! This is the nature of dictatorships, and their strength.
But in case of Israel, it is the opposite: A high rate of casualties, or a few IDF soldiers made prisoniers, can totally change the course of this war.

Now the IDF, in stage 3 of the war, is moving into towns and cities.
The palestinians want to keep their promise (as their leaders stated many times) which is to convert Gaza into an Israeli cemitary. And in order to do this, the palestinians have to face the IDF in street-fighting in towns and cities, and this is where the worse is yet to be expected...

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This about what really happened at the UNRWA school?

What really happened at the UNRWA school?

Chris Gunness, UNRWA spokesman, said that the agency was "99.9% certain" that no terrorists were on the grounds of the UNRWA school that saw some 30 people die yesterday.

John Ging, director of the UNRWA in Gaza, says that there is no way that terrorists could have been there. How does he know? Because "U.N. staff members and Palestinian families in the school compound in the Jabaliya refugee camp had been screened for weapons."

The AP reported immediately after the explosions:

Two residents of the area who spoke by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, the Associated Press reported. They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal, the AP said. The residents said the two brothers were known to be low-level Hamas militants. They said a group of militants - one of them said four - were firing mortar shells from near the school.

The IDF says that "The information that we have is that there was the launching of a mortar from the school's yard towards one of our forces. Our forces retaliated but it turned out that the school was booby trapped and as a result of our retaliation, everything flared up. There were a lot of secondary explosions from which probably those people were wounded."

From the pictures of the school that have been published, and from statements, it does not appear that anyone is claiming that mortars were being shot from within the school nor that Israel shot back into the school building. And Ging is clearly lying when he says that no weapons are allowed into UNRWA schools, as the IDF showed video of mortars being shot from that same school in 2007. In addition, in at least one case a UNRWA teacher was also an Islamic Jihad terrorist. And it is hard to take seriously that idea that the UNRWA can stop heavily armed terrorists from doing whatever they want at their schools anyway, especially when the agency will never criticize Hamas; and most of its employees are Palestinian Arabs who know that they would be killed if they do anything against the wishes of Hamas. Beyond that, Hamas has shown that it uses schools to store weapons, as the IDF showed yet again yesterday.

At this time my guess is that the mortars were shot from either very close to the school or within the school compound, Israel automatically returned fire to that same spot, and some of that shrapnel caused secondary explosions from bombs or weapons that were inside the school compound, although I am not sure about the booby traps. The death total seems way too high for tank shells alone. Obviously the residents of Gaza are too afraid to give evidence that would implicate Hamas and similarly photographers are afraid to take pictures that would show any clear terrorist activity in the school or outside it. (Hamas has already shown no compunction about brutally murdering "collaborators" in the fog of war, that are in all likelihood being counted as deaths from the IDF.)

(It is also interesting that while the initial reports said 42-45 dead, the UN later said that it was 30 dead, but today's newspapers report the higher figure as fact. The casualty count from the war is certainly higher than the reality.)

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Tnx for the info Dave....

In military tactics, there is a HUGE difference between saying "NEAR" the school, or "INSIDE" the school. The IDF with their all powerful weapons and experience could have handled that issue without having to kill innocents.

For God sake's, Israel has even the magic single weapon it recently invented, that no one else has: A shotgun that shoots at 90 degrees angle, shooting without exposing the shooter to its target!!!

The IDF could have handled this in so many other ways...!!! There were just a building or two!

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva

My understanding was that the position was shelled - then came a secondary explosion - caused by the build of weapons in the school grounds by Hamas.

Now, using civilians as human shields, well, thats just good tactics for a losing Hamas isn't it, especially in light of your earlier comments.

I wonder whether you have any thoughts regarding the three Katyusha rockets that hit the Israeli northern city of Nahariya this morning? (Source)

Does anything actually happen in the south of your country without the express approval of Hizbollah?

Also, do you not think, in light of the French-Egyptian brokered talks due to take place today in Cairo, that an attack on our northern cities from Lebanon will do nothing to bring about a cease fire? And if its discovered that Hizbollah either approved of or fired the rockets themselves, will you hold them responsible for any retaliatory action taken by my country?

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Dave, I have opened a second thread since we are talking of a second front now:

http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=695169#post695169

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

I'll see you there then my friend

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^
yes, I had to open a new thread or this one will become a salad. Actually the way things might evolve, we might have to open many threads...middle-eastern style...

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Well we do like to talk!