IDF invade Gaza Strip

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Tnx for the info Dave... Yes, 48 not 67.

Btw, those bombs we see the Israeli drop on Gaza, are they Phosphoric or not? Half the world says yes, the other says no... It seems it was used by the US in Iraq...

This conflict is also being discussed on facebook, a lot, groups etc...
Not getting involved there, I discuss this only here on [MS].

I got this on my PM, an Israeli woman replied to a Lebanese guy, and the replied was mailed to several users:

(I replaced her name with "XYZ" in the post)

i sent a msg to an israelian girl asking her about her opinion about what's going on in ghaza .. u wont belive what she said :
this is what she wrote on my wall :

XYZ wrote at 11:53am

Honestly I'm glad Israel is finally doing something about this. For 8 years Gaza has been throwing an average of 4 Qazams a day at us, and in the past 10 days it has been 70 Qasams a day at many cities. We have given them more than ENOUGH time to stop it, and they didn't. Everything has a limit, and Gaza has passed it LONG AGO. When Gaza asked ... Read MoreEgypt for help, they told them that Gaza brought this on themselves, and that they have to deal with it alone.
I have to remind you we have nothing against Gaza's people, but against the Hamas. The Hamas gets into civilian's houses and bombs us from there, and that's why civilian cassualties happen - because they let Hamas into their houses. It's a shame they die, but again - they brought it on themselves.
If you think these people are innocent, it's a shame but I have to disagree with you. It is sad that children and women are dying, but most of it is just for the media.


and this is onther one in my inbox :

I answered to your wall, but I'd like to add that the Hamas uses these pictures that are being published to pretend they are the victims, but I remind you they brought this on themselves. They have been bombing Israel for 8 years, and now that we respond they are crying to the UN, Egypt, and everyone they can. They have passed the limits, and they have to deal with it now.
As I told you, it's sad that women and children are dying because it's not their fault, but if they let the Hamas into their houses to kill OUR women and children, they have to face the consequences. By the way, Israel used to send food and medicine into Gaza, as well as supply water and electricity... Only that the Hamas took it all to themselves and gave nothing to the people who were supposed to get it.

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Btw, those bombs we see the Israeli dorp on Gaza on Gaza, are they Phosphoric or not? Half the world says tes, the other says no... It seems it was used by the US in Iraq...

Hi Shiva, hope you're having a good day.

I'm no military man, but if you believe everything you read about the sort of weapons Israel is meant to have . . . . .

But in relation to whether Israel is using Phosphorus weapons or not, aside from the fact that this 'rumor' started via PressTV I very much doubt it to be true. . . that said, I did find this for you.

Another Leftist/Islamist Lie Up In Smoke

It doesn't seem that we can have a conflict in the Middle East without pro-terrorist Islamists and Leftists in the world declaring that white phosphorus (WP) is a chemical weapon, and that the military force using WP is guilty of a "war crime" or "atrocity" for firing white phosphorus shells—never mind that that Islamist force targets civilians, uses their own population as human shields, and commits rape and torture with barbaric impunity to those they suppress.

Such apologist claims, almost without exception, based upon either radical politics, gross ignorance, or a combination of the two. In either event, these shrill claims are decidedly false.

A typical case of ignorance is the one I cited several days ago in the Pacific Free Press where the headline called the use of White Phosphorus by Israeli forces in Gaza the " War Crime du Jour."

Likewise, "Cernig," posting at Crooks & Liars, posted an equally inflammatory, fact-free and generally unhinged rant on the subject:

And there are good reasons to believe that the IDF is simply lying as part of a propaganda war it admits has been eight months in the planning: the use of indiscriminate white phosphorus airbursts, in contravention of international law as it is understood everywhere except the US and Israel (the 1980 Protocol III to the Convention on Conventional Weapons containsa blanket restriction on dropping incendiary weapons from the air against military objectives "located within a concentration of civilians"); the way in which the IDF is throwing explosives around so freely that almost as many of its people have been killed by its own "errant' tank shells as by enemy action.

Like most Leftists, Cernig is quick to pick and choose his atrocities of choice, completely ignoring that Hamas purposefully targeted Israeli civilians with thousands of rockets and mortar shells, in order for him to attack Israel by purposefully (and ignorantly) misconstruing what the laws of land warfare are, and what white phosphorus munitions are being used, and how.

The Israelis are not firing White Phosphorus incendiary weapons into Gaza.

This photo from Gil Cohen Magen two days ago shows Israeli 155mm M825A1 white phosphorus shells, with "M825A1" written clearly on the sides. I've cropping the image to focus on the M825A1 shells.

Update: A higher-resolution crop showing the shell markings more clearly.

Likewise, this photo posted today shows more Israeli 155mm M825A1 shells near a self-propelled gun.

Clearly, Israeli forces are using 155mm M825A1 white phosphorus shells in Gaza. But the white phosphorus shells they are using in Gaza are not incendiaries, and they are not being used in any way that can possibly be misconstrued as illegal.

Why?

Because the M825A1 is a smoke round.

From Global Security:

The M825 is a 155mm Smoke projectile used to provide screening or marking smoke. It is a separate loading munition using a hollow forged steel shell. The shape is ogival with a boat tail for aerodynamic efficiency and a welded steel baseplate. Close to the base is a gilding metal drive band protected by a grommet until just before loading. The M825 White Phosphorus (Felt-Wedge) is a 155mm base ejection projectile designed to produce a smoke screen on the ground for a duration of 5 to 15 minutes. It consists of two major components, the projectile carrier, and the payload. The projectile carrier delivers the payload to the target. The payload consists of 116 WP-saturated felt wedges.After ejection, the WP felt wedges fall to ground in a elliptical pattern. Each wedge will then becomes a source of smoke. The projectile is ballistically similar to the M483A1 DPICM family of projectiles.

Smoke ammunition is a limited asset. Since ammunition requirements vary with each mission, observers should know the amount and types of smoke ammunition available and how many minutes of coverage it can provide. Extensive, planned smoke employment should be coordinated early with firing units to allow for redistribution or requisition of ammunition.

That's the short version.

The full article goes into far more detail about the nuance about the difference between the use of "quick smoke" and "immediate smoke" for battlefield missions, but one thing is painfully obvious—these are artillery shells and they contain white phosphorus, but they are not incendiary weapons, and they are not, by any remote measure, illegal to use in Gaza or anywhere else. They are smoke shells, used to create smoke screens.
The kind of white phosphorus artillery shells used as incendiary munitions are those called burster-type white phosphorus, and Global Security explains the difference between the incendiary and smoke rounds in sufficient detail .

The airburst Cernig and other terrorist apologists laments as an illegal attack is instead how a smokescreen is created to protect advancing soldiers. It is decidedly not an incendiary weapon, is decidedly not illegal, violating no laws or conventions.

Make no mistake—these apologists, Islamists and Leftists alike, are lying, pro-terror shills.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Hi Shiva, hope you're having a good day.

I'm no military man, but if you believe everything you read about the sort of weapons Israel is meant to have . . . . .

But in relation to whether Israel is using Phosphorus weapons or not, aside from the fact that this 'rumor' started via PressTV I very much doubt it to be true. . . that said, I did find this for you.

Tnx...

and tnx for including the short version of the doc as well...

[raver_mania]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

All I can say is what's happening in Gaza is pretty horrible!!! Apparently Israel now admits that the boming of the UN school was a mistake and the photos of militants firing from the school was from 2007? I read that in Haaretz today...can anyone confirm from other news sources. Also, a UN worker was shot getting supplies, so the UN is no longer going to be providing aid? If this is true, then those soldiers HAVE to be brought to justice.

At the same time, Hamas' leadership (sitting safe and sound in Lebanon, mind you) is saying the truce does not meet their demands or that of the Palestinian people??? WTF!!! Get your ass over to Gaza if you're going to be making statements on behalf of the Gazans! The nerve of hese b******ds...firing from civilian areas and using civilians as cover!

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

The Hamas spokesman speaks out from Lebanon, but the ones on the move are suspected to be Hamas-Syria (fingers point at them for firing rockets from Lebanon). Cant really know...what a mess!

(maybe it is pretty much the same...)

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

All I can say is what's happening in Gaza is pretty horrible!!! Apparently Israel now admits that the boming of the UN school was a mistake and the photos of militants firing from the school was from 2007? I read that in Haaretz today...can anyone confirm from other news sources. Also, a UN worker was shot getting supplies, so the UN is no longer going to be providing aid? If this is true, then those soldiers HAVE to be brought to justice.

At the same time, Hamas' leadership (sitting safe and sound in Lebanon, mind you) is saying the truce does not meet their demands or that of the Palestinian people??? WTF!!! Get your ass over to Gaza if you're going to be making statements on behalf of the Gazans! The nerve of hese b******ds...firing from civilian areas and using civilians as cover!

Hi Raver welcome to the debate, where rational mind prevail!

First off the 'film' released of firing from schools was never listed as this incident, but was evidence of previous behaviour - should it have be re-released now, not really, it just confused history (as in last year) with now.

There is also some confusing as to who shot the aid worker, i think i have posted something here already (if not I will dig something out for you).

The problem we have with news from this conflict is that in its wisdom (not) my government has decided to not allow reporters into Gaza - so the only news sources we are getting are the media that is already there - PressTV (Iranian) mainly, and some local stringers for some the news agencies.

What I can tell you though is that during the agreed three hour lull in violence today, a time set apart to enable aid to cross over - at the Kerem Shalom crossing, Hamas fired mortars at the crossing therefore ensuring that we closed it. It would seem to Hamas that stopping aid getting to needy Gazans is as important as using gazans as human shields.

Like their esteemed colleague from Hizbollah, it would seem that Hamas's leadership prefers to spend their time underground - no doubt they have enough supplies to last them - which is more than can be said about the Gazans, apparently.

I particularly like the fact that Mashaal (not sure on spelling), who is deemed the leader of political Hamas still lives in Syria - considering Gaza has been an Israeli free zone since 05, I guess he prefers the comfort of Damascus to the self inflicted hell hole of Gaza.

[runningman]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

What are you doing to prepare for the invasion?

[thesightless]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

I particularly like the fact that Mashaal (not sure on spelling), who is deemed the leader of political Hamas still lives in Syria - considering Gaza has been an Israeli free zone since 05, I guess he prefers the comfort of Damascus to the self inflicted hell hole of Gaza.

its easier to live in comfort and wealth provided by anti jew sympathizers while keeping gaza down in an effort to further his political and "i follow psycho islam" religious goals.. this way, he still drinks the kool aid while telling gazans isreal prevents them from having it when all the while, its his buddies giving the isrealis a reason to close the border.


again gazans. look at west bank.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Disasters start to unveil since journalists are now able to enter the Gaza strip.


The Israeli leaders that are involved in this war should be taken to the international court and judged for crimes against humanity.

[ganjamo]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^^ So do palestinian leaders and other political ally's that collaborate with the terrorists.

[DIDI]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Who are the terrorists ????????????????

[Miroslav]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Who are the terrorists ????????????????

Really, both sides are pretty bad.

Do you really think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys? They send women and children with bombs strapped to them to die, they use their own civilians as shields for themselves, and they fire rockets into Israel on a regular basis. Israel, for its part, probably overreacts and kills indiscriminately in retaliation, pushes beyond their original boundaries, and too often treats Palestinians like inferior subhumans.

So both sides are terrorists against each other for years. That's why the Middle East pretty much has earned the distinction of being the world's biggest clusterfuck, which no one can resolve.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ +1

Both sides are have messed up on the civilian populations.
But I will never understand this excessive use of force from the IDF, the numbers talk enough.

[DIDI]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Really, both sides are pretty bad.

Do you really think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys? They send women and children with bombs strapped to them to die, they use their own civilians as shields for themselves, and they fire rockets into Israel on a regular basis. Israel, for its part, probably overreacts and kills indiscriminately in retaliation, pushes beyond their original boundaries, and too often treats Palestinians like inferior subhumans.

So both sides are terrorists against each other for years. That's why the Middle East pretty much has earned the distinction of being the world's biggest clusterfuck, which no one can resolve.

I don't think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys but the actions of Israel make them look like choir boys.

Hamas stopped the suicide bombings years ago . You only have the Israeli view that they used their own as shields , in fact it is now coming out the the Israelis were using palestinian civilians as human shields.

Those pathetic rockets [I find the word "targeted" used in conjunction with these rockets pretty absurd] which for the most part Hamas stopped for a considerable time , but Israel didn't honour it's part of the bargain.

Israel DEFINITELY overreacts , they have no respect for any other authority bar their own. They have committed horrendous war crimes.

Israel also supported Hamas initially as a weapon to over throw the PLO . Whether we like it or not Hamas was DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

The sheer weight of the actual numbers is overwhelming. They killed !00 times the number of people in this one exercise than Hamas has killed in years. Israel actually killed more of it's own than Hamas or any Palestinian did in this.

I actually wonder why Israel do it because this sort of exercise can only breed a whole new generation of hatred. Definitely won't help Israel's stated aims.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ +1