IDF invade Gaza Strip

[Shiva]

[Anyone is invited to participate in this debate provided their input is accurate and the comments stay within the limits of respect: But due to the sensitive nature of this topic this thread is watched and is being moderated, any offensive posts will be deleted. Thank you for your understanding]

Watching this on the news, really disastrous!

The Israeli defense minister Barak said it is a "deep incursion and a long operation"

The IDF have already moved into Gaza Strip, and according to local news there are heavy civilian casualties and military ones as well.... The IDF are mobilizing more reservists.

The situation is so volatile at the moment in the whole region, everybody is rushing to calm things down, but it might be a bit too late for that.
I hope Lebanon will stay out of it otherwise it might just turn into a full-scale regional war, a war that could slip out of everybody's control

[simonr]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Sad news .. I suppose there was an air of inevetability about this - there isn't a solution that can resolve the conflict and now the world watches on.

Frankly the whole situation confuses and depresses the hell out of me - the only outcome will be a higher body count, not peace.

[DIDI]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^^^^ So true. Very, very sad!!

[dig72]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Really quite depressing.

What a terrible way to welcome in the New Year.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Day 2 of the ground incursion:

This morning some news is leaking on Arab TV:

From the Israeli military side:
- 30 injured (2 seriously)
- 2 soldiers made prisoners (if true, the Palestinians now hold a total of 3 soldiers prisoners)

No news from Palestinian military side
- Lots of civilian casualties...

The US blocked a cease fire statement that was sought by the UN

This war will obviously be a long one...

[thesightless]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

No news from Palestinian military side
- Lots of civilian casualties...

not that isreal isnt truly doing thier bullshit world status standard civvie death % best by walking house top house and interviewing, hamas has 100000000 times more blame for hat second part than anyone. if they would just stop operating in front of innocent people (even though they sympathize** and offer ), so many "innocent" gazan lives could be saved from death and the figures woiuld be less skewed to make isreal, a country who literally faces hundreds of missle attacks a month from "neighboring villages and towns".

**that word does not in any way at all dictate or put forth a meaning of "they are part of the violent, murderous willing to kill group of people within the anti sireali movement", but merely a motion of fact that normally these civilians only carry that name becuase they are not registered, uniformed members of the Gaza Nation. i.e. if the US had a cvil war and i offered my personal home to the NY resistance after the war was finished and i decided to keep up the fight after the south had won. even if it meant killing my neighbors to serve political and humanitarian purposes.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

not that isreal isnt truly doing thier bullshit world status standard civvie death % best by walking house top house and interviewing, hamas has 100000000 times more blame for hat second part than anyone. if they would just stop operating in front of innocent people (even though they sympathize** and offer ), so many "innocent" gazan lives could be saved from death and the figures woiuld be less skewed to make isreal, a country who literally faces hundreds of missle attacks a month from "neighboring villages and towns".

^ I think Gaza is the one of the most populated areas in the world, maybe in Top 5:

I think they live @ 1.5 million gazans in a surface of less than 10km2, which is hugely dense on capita/km2... That's a main reason why unfortunately the civilians (elders, women and children) pay such a high price. It's winter time here and it got pretty cold for a "middle eastern" winter, so many civilians have already lost their houses and have no other place to go to...

It is a humanitarian catastrophy unfolding before our eyes!

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ I think Gaza is the one of the most populated areas in the world, maybe in Top 5:

I think they live @ 1.5 million gazans in a surface of less than 10km2,

Sorry Shiva, you're 'facts' aren't event remotely close to reality.

First off the Strip is 151 sq km.

Secondly if you take the size of the whole strip, and its population, there are far more places on this planet that are more populated.

Here's two comparisons:

Mumbai - Area 603.4 sq KM - Population - 13,662,885 = 22643 people per sq km

New York City - Area 1,214 sq Km - Population - 8,274,527 = 6813 people per sq km

Gaza Strip - Area 360 sq km - Population 1,481,080 = 4114 people per Sq Km

Figures from Wikipedia.

So please when discussing this, please try to use facts that are verifiable and not just blatant bullshit, you are not the MSM and therefore I would hope that you would check facts before posting.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Sorry Shiva, you're 'facts' aren't event remotely close to reality.

First off the Strip is 151 sq km.

Secondly if you take the size of the whole strip, and its population, there are far more places on this planet that are more populated.

Here's two comparisons:

Mumbai - Area 603.4 sq KM - Population - 13,662,885 = 22643 people per sq km

New York City - Area 1,214 sq Km - Population - 8,274,527 = 6813 people per sq km

Gaza Strip - Area 360 sq km - Population 1,481,080 = 4114 people per Sq Km

Figures from Wikipedia.

So please when discussing this, please try to use facts that are verifiable and not just blatant bullshit, you are not the MSM and therefore I would hope that you would check facts before posting.

^ Aouch

Yes, well I haven't checked the exact surface area of Gaza coa that was not the point: what I meant is that it is really small and highly dense in population, which is a direct reason why the casualties are high.

However, to respond to your so-accurate figures that don't seem to match the ones I got:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

The Gaza Strip (Arabic: قطاع غزة transliteration: Qiṭɑʿ Ġazza/Qita' Ghazzah, Hebrew: רצועת עזה Retzu'at 'Azza) is a coastal strip of land along the Mediterranean Sea currently governed by Hamas. It borders Egypt on the south-west and Israel on the north and east. It is about 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and between 6 and 12 kilometers (4–7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 360 square kilometers (139 sq mi). The area is not recognized internationally as part of any sovereign country but is claimed by the Palestinian National Authority as part of the Palestinian territories. Since the June 2007 battle of Gaza, actual control of the area is in the hands of the Hamas de facto government.

The point here is not about the surface area of Gaza, but its density. The surface area cannot be accurate in any reference due to settlements and other reasons.

And I think, I can discuss this subject as much as I want coz I don't just read about it or watch it on TV, I live it! You googling some info doesnt necessarily make you more knowledgeable about a subject...

(and plz, next time u wana reply to me, keep ur bully language to yourself, it would be much appreciated)

[sono]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva, what do you expect from a nation that thinks the only way to achieve its goals is by brute force.

Let's not forget Hamas was voted in through a UN inspected elections and Israel together with the US has been carrying out collective punishment since then.

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ Aouch

Yes, well I haven't checked the exact surface area of Gaza coa that was not the point: what I meant is that it is really small and highly dense in population, which is a direct reason why the casualties are high.

Actually the direct reason why casulties are so high is because Hamas continue to store their arms and weapons amongst the civillian population - which is a war crime.

Have a look at some the images the IAF has released of their precision targeting in Gaza and you will see the initial hit followed by a huge secondary explosions - mainly Grads and Qassams going boom!

However, to respond to your so-accurate figures that don't seem to match the ones I got:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

The Gaza Strip (Arabic: قطاع غزة transliteration: Qiṭɑʿ Ġazza/Qita' Ghazzah, Hebrew: רצועת עזה Retzu'at 'Azza) is a coastal strip of land along the Mediterranean Sea currently governed by Hamas. It borders Egypt on the south-west and Israel on the north and east. It is about 41 kilometers (25 mi) long, and between 6 and 12 kilometers (4–7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 360 square kilometers (139 sq mi). The area is not recognized internationally as part of any sovereign country but is claimed by the Palestinian National Authority as part of the Palestinian territories. Since the June 2007 battle of Gaza, actual control of the area is in the hands of the Hamas de facto government.

The point here is not about the surface area of Gaza, but its density. The surface area cannot be accurate in any reference due to settlements and other reasons.

And I think, I can discuss this subject as much as I want coz I don't just read about it or watch it on TV, I live it!

(and plz, next time u wana reply to me, keep ur bully language to yourself, it would be much appreciated)

So your Gaza facts state that the strip is 360 sq km, which is what i have posted. Take the population of gaza divide by the size of the strip and my figures are correct - whats your point exactly? That Gaza ISN'T one of the most over populated areas on this planet is a basic fact.

My bully language? You mean asking you to be better than the MSM by trying to actually use facts instead of fiction? Bwahahaha Funny lady!

As for you 'living' it - where are you? Gaza? Sderot? How do you 'live' it compared to me?

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Before this goes any further or take other directions:
I opened this thread under the humanitarian perspective of this tragic event, and event that might blow out of proportion.

As a European-born, I have been living 15 years in the middle east now, and I still have'nt figured out all those clashes of cultures/religions and political views. I survived few wars and more than 30 terrorist attacks in the past 2 years.

However, I am an artist and a public figure in the region; although I have my own views and thoughts of the world surrounding me, I cannot share them. Never did, never will.

In Lebanon we have the term "Bizantine Argument": A "bizantine argument" is when 2 or more people talk or shout over each other without ever reaching to any understanding, conclusion or even moving forward in the subject:

The Israeli-Arab conflict is rooted in 3000 years of history coz it is "bizantine argument" between cultures/civilizations/religions and politics...

So, my point in opening the thread is not to criticize/judge/defend or attack any side in conflict; My heart is broken for all those innocent people (from all sides) suffering this endless conflict. Today we see people suffering from wounds on TV, but the sufferings aren't just physical. There are all kinds of sufferings related to this conflict, and it extends to more than 2 or 3 countries, and it has already affected so many past generations, and will probably affect many more to come....

My deep concern is not to have Lebanon involved in this coz it wont be a 30-days "light" war as it was in 2006...it will get MUCH nastier. I had a tiny taste of that "light" war, and I don't wana taste a heavy one, for nothing on this earth!

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ Ah, now that your country has appeared DAVETLV on ur profile, I can understand your point. And now that my country has appeared as well, you can understand what I mean...

(Part of my family is from Southern Lebanon)

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva, what do you expect from a nation that thinks the only way to achieve its goals is by brute force.

Let's not forget Hamas was voted in through a UN inspected elections and Israel together with the US has been carrying out collective punishment since then.

Indeed lets Sono, lets look at how Hamas has used force against my country between the end of the ceasefire and the start of Operation Cast Lead.

Source
December 19th The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.[86]

December 21st At least 50 rockets and mortars to strike southern Israel since a cease-fire with Hamas ended on December 19th. Rockets landed in Ashkelon's industrial zone, near an elementary school, a youth cultural center in the western Negev and a home in Sderot. A foreign worker was injured. In response, Israeli forces struck at least two rocket launchers in Gaza. [87]

December 22nd Three Qassam rockets were fired at Israel on Monday afternoon and evening while Hamas has mostly stopped launching rockets at Israel for 24 hours at the request of Egypt.[88]

December 23rd At least five Qassam rockets fired from the Gaza Strip struck the western Negev.[89]

December 24th More than 60 Qassam rockets and dozens of mortar shells struck homes, factories and a playground in southern Israel. Two longer ranged Grad-type missiles struck a public area in northern Ashkelon. Homes in Kibbutz Shaar Hanegev and Sdot Negev suffered serious damage from direct hits. A rocket also struck next to a playground in Netivot. One factory in the western Negev was hit twice. Several people in those areas were treated for shock.Two Palestinians were hurt when a rocket that did not clear the security fence at the border landed on a home in a northern Gaza town. [90]

December 26th A dozen rockets and mortar bombs were fired from Gaza into Israel, one accidentally falling short and striking a northern Gaza house and killing two Palestinian sisters, aged five and thirteen, while wounding a third[91][92]Hamas, and their supporters, have achieved everything they wanted and now they cry like little bitches when they get hurt in return.

Stop Hamas fire against my country and we will gladly leave those fucks in Gaza alone.

Whats not to understand? Even Egypts foreign minister realises that Hamas has created this situation.

They've got exactly what they wanted - more dead Palestinians to blame Israel for.

The only people i feel sorry for here are the Palsestinian civillians and Israeli civillians whose lives are affected by the Iranian stooges in hamas.

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ Ah, now that your country has appeared DAVETLV on ur profile, I can understand your point. And now that my country has appeared as well, you can understand what I mean...

My country has always appeared under my name.

What I understand Shiva is that yet again people are being hurt and killed in a region that has seen far to much death and destruction. All i ask is that when we discuss this emotive issue we try to do it in away different to the Main Stream media - by this i mean actually using real facts and sources and not unverifiable propaganda from either side.