IDF invade Gaza Strip

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ In my perspective, it would interesting to find a place where I could exchange ideas and better understand the world I live in.
By Lebanese law, it is forbidden to any Lebanese to talk or to be associate with any Israeli (considered the enemy).

So I have never had the chance to find a place where I could, even publicly, try to understand the thoughts on the other side of the border. I do deal with several artists from beyond the border, but it sticks to musical issues only since it is artist-to-artist relationship.

However, here on [MS], I am not talking with an Israeli, I am posting on a public forum where everybody could read and participate.
No conspiracies, and a clean exchange of points of view.

I do have few questions to ask from someone from the "other side" who is willing to discuss these matters in an honest and mature way. This topic is so complex that there are many things that I still don't understand coz I donno what is the other perspective of the story. So maybe through [MS] I could understand that...

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

I do have few questions to ask from someone from the "other side" who is willing to discuss these matters in an honest and mature way. This topic is so complex that there are many things that I still don't understand coz I donno what is the other perspective of the story. So maybe through [MS] I could understand that...

I would be delighted to answer any questions - you might not get the Israeli government line, but you will get an honest response from me, and from my perspective Shiva I have enjoyed reading your take on the situation greatly.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ Beautiful Dave.

I know I won't get a response from the Israeli gov, but you are an Israeli citizen, you live there, follow the situation etc etc, just as I am, here in Lebanon. We don't read everything on the media, you cant feel the mood and deep thoughts of a nation through reading only. Discussing it with someone who actually lives there can give you a broader account of things, especially if done in a constructive way...really.

Most people know me as an artist, but I also have my own intellect, knowledge and a university degree as well; To me this is one the most important subjects: I was not born in Lebanon but I chose this country as mine, I love it and would like to understand more, not by googling but rather through someone who lives it, just like I do.

Thank you Dave for your disposal of doing this, and whoever would like to pitch in...

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This war has to stop!!!!

Question:
Why Israel is not accepting the return of the 67 refugees?

Is it a balance of demography thing, between Israelis and Palestinians? Coz the fact that Israel is denying their return doesn't show good intention. Israel is so advanced and powerful militarily while the Palestinians barely have a police corp.

[runningman]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

again shiva this is about the whole region not just gaza, Iran is the goal in all of this.

[Shiva]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

But that wouldn't ask my question. Iran or not, Israel has to deal with the Palestinian refugees, sooner or later (it it wants real peace).

[runningman]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Norwegian doctor on CBS

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This war has to stop!!!!

Question:
Why Israel is not accepting the return of the 67 refugees?

Is it a balance of demography thing, between Israelis and Palestinians? Coz the fact that Israel is denying their return doesn't show good intention. Israel is so advanced and powerful militarily while the Palestinians barely have a police corp.

There is no call for a return of 67 refugees, for if there would they would be returned to Jordan and Egypt.

There is however a call for a return of refugees from 1948 - an average estimate of those numbers stand at approx 600K.

Additionally, you should note that there is NO call for a return of the 850K Jews who were expelled from Arab countries between 1948 and the mid-50's..

There is some question as to why we still have refugees, and why the Palestinians are dealt with differently under UN law than every other group of refugees since the second world war.

Israeli authorities, and by this i mean the Jewish Agency and its leaders pre the decleration of independance in 1948, begged Arab residents not to heed the calls of their leaders to leave their homes, but the arabs who left did so under the impression that it would be temporary and that they could return to their homes after the new state of israel had been defeated. Well, defeat never came. People became reugees, and from that moment on it became more important for Arab nations to keep those people in camps and as second class citizens than it was to welcome them into the countries they had gone to - some thing that has happened to no other group of refugees in the last century (to my knowledge)

Might I suggest as a source Shiva you try wikipedia - for amongst all its fault, the history from late 19th to mid 20th for the middle east is pretty neutral and accurate.

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

A bit about 'your' so called Norweigian Doctor

The source of most of the information coming from Gaza thus far has been from Palestinian representatives. One of the only non-Palestinian voices heard has been that of Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor who entered Gaza on December 31 along with his colleague Erik Fosse ostensibly to provide medical assistance to Palestinians at Shifa Hospital. They have become media stars as the BBC, CBS, CNN, ABC, Independent, Sky News, and New York Times, among others, have turned to them as independent foreign observers to provide a presumably non-partisan perspective. They have been extensively interviewed in the Norwegian as well as the world press. In fact, Gilbert appears in so many interviews that one wonders how he has the time to provide medical help, never mind "doing surgery around the clock" as he claims.

In his interviews, Gilbert decries what he claims is Israel's "all out war against civilians." Condemning Israel for "deliberately targeting the [Palestinian] population" and causing "a man-made disaster," Gilbert and Fosse claim that Israel and the UN are lying about the civilian casualty count and feed the media their own alternate statistics ( "50% of the casualties are women and children"–CBS; "children made up 25% of the deaths and 45% of the wounded"–BBC). Gilbert is even quoted by the Iranian Press TV alleging the Israelis have used unconventional weapons against the Palestinians.

So are these Norwegians indeed non-partisan foreigners providing independent confirmation of Palestinian reports or do they have an agenda? Is Gilbert simply someone "who was allowed into Gaza last week to give emergency medical aid, and who has worked in many conflict zones," as the New York Times introduces him or someone with a partisan perspective?

Gilbert is a radical Marxist and a member of the political Red (Rodt) party, a revolutionary socialist party in Norway. He has been a pro-Palestinian activist since the 1970's and travelled to Lebanon in support of the Palestinians during the first Lebanon war in 1982. He has long been a vocal opponent of Israel and the U.S. Gilbert has acknowledged that he cannot separate politics from medicine, stating, "there is little in medicine that is not politics." He even criticizes the group Doctors Without Borders for providing medical assistance to both sides in a conflict instead of taking a strong stance and supporting only one party. In a 2006 article in Nordlys, journalist Ivan Kristoffersen lamented the fact that Gilbert allows his humanitarian efforts to be politicized by his radical agenda.

The extent of Gilbert's political agenda and animus toward Israel and the U.S. is best evidenced by his radical support for the 9/11 terrorist attacks against the U.S.

In an interview with the Norwegian daily, Dagbladet, shortly after the attacks, Gilbert stated:

The attack on New York was not surprising, after the policy that has led the West in recent decades. I am upset over the terrorist attack, but am equally upset over the suffering which the United States has created. It is in this context that the 5000 dead people must be seen. If the U.S. government has a legitimate right to bomb and kill civilians in Iraq, then there is also a moral right to attack the United States with the weapons they had to create. Dead civilians are the same whether they are Americans, Palestinians or Iraqis.

When asked by Dagbladet if he supported the terrorist attack on the U.S., he replied:

Terror is a bad weapon, but the answer is yes, within the context I have mentioned. (Sept. 30, 2001)

Fosse worked as a doctor for the Palestine Committee in Lebanon in the 1970's. He now leads NORWAC, the Norwegian Aid Committee. According to Aftenposten, Fosse's passion to work on behalf of Palestinians was sparked by his time in Lebanon.

According to Verdens Gang, the largest Norwegian daily, Gilbert and Fosse's current trip to Gaza is funded by the Norwegian foreign ministry. Given the partisan — and in Gilbert's case, radical — perspective they represent, Fosse's and Gilbert's testimony must be weighed with extreme caution.


Source

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Let take a minute or 10 out of our day to actually see who Hamas are and how they treat Gazans.


[youtube]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I[/youtube]

[runningman]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

so are you basically saying that Israel can kill children because Hamas did?

Showing clips from 9/11 isn't right IMO either. Just looks like a jewish propaganda film IMO. So nobody feels bad about killing kids.

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

so are you basically saying that Israel can kill children because Hamas did?

Er, where have I said that?

I think you find littered throughout my posts my statement that one death is one too many.

I do however think there is a clear difference between deliberately targeting children and civilians and deliberately using children and civilians as human shields.

Some more reading for y'all.

Hamas targets schools, world is blind, deaf, and dumb on topic


First, I researched the grad rocket. It is accurate. It can be targeted.


Then, I checked on Google maps to see how easy it is to map out a school in Israel. Satellite view. No problem.


Then I checked reports of how many kindergartens and schools have been hit by grad rockets.
One.

Earlier Thursday, a Grad rocket hit a school in Ashkelon. The rocket exploded at the school’s gym, which stood empty at the time of the attack. The building sustained damages but no one was injured.

Two.

Rocket fire continues: A Grad rocket hit an empty kindergarten in the port city of Ashdod on Monday afternoon. An air raid siren sounded in Ashdod and Ashkelon at around 3:20 pm. Several people suffered shock, but there were no injuries. The place was heavily damaged.

Three.

Beersheba joined the list of rocket-stricken communities Tuesday evening as an air raid siren sounded across the southern city, followed by several explosions. A Grad missile landed in an empty kindergarten in the city, causing damage. Thirty-four people were treated for shock at the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba.

Four. (March 2008 )

Another rocket landed near a kindergarten in the city, where dozens of children were beginning their day.
As the nursery teachers wiped their tears, they told Ynet that the Color Red alert system was not heard in the kindergarten

Five. (February 2008 )

On Thursday a total of 10 rockets hit the beachside city of Ashkelon leaving growing anxiety in their wake. Two long-range Grad rockets fired from the northern Strip hit the city that was previously considered out-of-range of the rockets. One of the rockets landed near a school in the center of town. A 17-year-old girl suffered light shrapnel wounds in the latest attack and several other people suffered from anxiety.

I’m sure there are more. That’s a cursory first check.


Hamas deliberately targets Israeli schools. Palestinian terrorists deliberately time their attacks for when children are walking to or from school. There has never been an outcry from any organization that normal protests human rights violations. There have been no accusations of war crimes by Hamas. There has been, in fact, utter silence from the usual suspects. Israel schools are being targeted, and yet, that gets shrugged off by everyone but Israelis.


Compare that to the world outcry of the UN school in Jabalya that got hit after terrorists used it as cover to fire mortars at IDF troops.


No, the world ignores Palestinian war crimes on a regular basis, and denies that they occur, or excuses them as the result of “occupation.” Or in revenge for Israel bombing Palestinian smuggling tunnels.


What time is it, kiddies? That’s right. It’s Israeli Double Standard Time, which only occurs on days that end with a “y.”

IDF shell kills 30 in Gaza UN school; Israel mulls appeal over Hamas fire from UN facilities

Israel is considering submitting a complaint to the United Nations of Hamas' use of the world body's facilities for terror purposes, after 30 people were killed when an Israeli army artillery shell struck a UN school in Gaza. Israeli troops say that they were fired on from the building.

The Israel Defense Forces soldiers attacked the UN-run girl's school near the Jabalya refugee camp in self-defense, saying militants barricaded inside began firing mortar rounds at them.

"Initial checks ... show that from inside the school mortars were fired at Israeli forces," an IDF spokesman said. "In response, the forces fired a number of mortar rounds into the area."

The army also said that the bodies of Hamas militants were found inside the school following the attack. Troops identified two of the casualties at the site as Imad and Hassan Abu Askhar, who served as heads of the Hamas mortar units in Gaza.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni met Tuesday evening to discuss how the incident at the Jabalya school would be investigated.

"Hamas is making every effort to cover up the details of the incident," defense establishment officials said.

A spokesman of the Israeli Embassy in the U.S. said that it was clear that the site was not operating as a school at the time of the attack.

Hamas has once again cynically chosen to use civilian sites from which to operate, thus endangering the safety of innocent civilians," he said.

"This is not the first time that Hamas has fired mortars and rockets from schools, which deliberately uses civilians as human shields in their acts of terror," he added, citing footage from an unmanned plane showing rockets and mortars being fired from the yard of an UNRWA school.

Meanwhile, the UNRWA is demanding an independent investigation and the indictment of anyone found to have violated international law.

The attack brought the Palestinian death toll to nearly 600 in Israel's 11-day offensive on the Hamas-ruled coastal territory.

Also on Tuesday, Israel Air Force warplanes struck a building in Gaza in which the head of Hamas' rocket division was staying. It was not immediately clear whether Ayman Sayam was hit in the attack, which occurred in the Jabalya refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip.

So, heres an interesting question or two - if Israel fired a couple of shells into the school compound, what made it light up the sky like the 4th of July? How many weapons were being stored in this UNWRA school that ensured that 30 people were killed? And why did Hamas round up children and take them into the school prior to firing rounds at Israel? And why do UNWRA continue to allow their premise to be used by Hamas as weapon storage facilities?

These questions are not mine alone - they are serious questions which Hamas and UNWRA have as yet not answered. but maybe a partial answer can be found in how Hamas views Gazans - as fodder for Israeli shells.

[davetlv]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

And whilst on the subject, lets pay careful attention to words from a Hamas leader that were said a few days ago -

A HAMAS leader has warned that Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel's devastating assault.

“They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,” Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location.

“They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.”

Mr Zahar made his first appearance since Israel launched its offensive.

Dressed in a dark suit, he declared: “Victory is coming, God willing.”

Source

So, simply put, Zahar is saying that Hamas will target Jewish children, not Israeli kids, anywhere in the world.

So, if you're Jewish and live in Argentina, or America, or France, or Germany, or Australia, or Russia, or Mexico, or South Africa, or the UK, well anywhere, you're kids are fair game!

Hamas intentionally go out of their way to kill Israeli civilians in Israel and now they are threatening Jewish children around the globe.

But hey, they're brave freedom fighters right!

[runningman]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

hey i didn't say they are freedom fighters at all. I just hope it stops before Iran gets into the mix.

[scifi pi]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

you should all make the effort to watch the documentary Occupation101. its definitely more relevant now than ever.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0807956/