Backdoor Draft

[LobsterClan]

But someday, when there is an eminent threat to the US.. a draft may be necessary. I don't see this in the near future.

Obviously, you are in the 18-26 group that will be drafted. Let's see-- we can't even take over the city of Falluja, martial law has been declared in Iraq-- Syria and Iran are hearing the war drums daily, and you don't see a draft coming? Wake up, buddy boy.

[Balanc3]

Charlie Rangel is an asshole. But anyhow ^^ I'll see you there Lobster... hope you don't get caught in my crossfire.

[LobsterClan]

Charlie Rangel is an asshole. But anyhow ^^ I'll see you there Lobster... hope you don't get caught in my crossfire.

Sorry buddy, at 27, I'm past drafting age.

I'm also a conscientious objector.

[Balanc3]

He wrote the bill in order to bring attention to the subject. He is fully aware that George Bush plans to bring the draft back very soon. It was a preemptive strike, as it were. If you check the votes, you'll actually see that Rangel voted against his own bill, and urged his democratic colleagues to do the same.

He wrote the bill, but wouldn't sponsor it. What does that tell you. You have a conscientious objection for everything so comeon...

[Civic_Zen]

There will be no draft red lobster, get over it.

[thesightless]

Re: Backdoor Draft

be glad we arent in certain countries where you are drafted at the age of 13.

[ftc]

Civic thanks for analyzing my post & now I'd like to have a go at it.

Civic_Zen wrote:

ftc wrote:
it may be true that the US does have a strong army but it's also obvious it's thinning out quite quickly.

What exactly do you mean by this?? 1,000 dead and you call that thinning out? Obviously you have no understanding of the size of our military. We have troops stationed all over the world ready to go to Iraq if needed. People are completely overstating the facts on this issue.

you've misunderstood me here. I don't mean that 1000 dead will affect the US army neither am I arguing it's power. What I meant is thinning out in the numbers of people who will be volunteering. It's hard not to imagine people will be thinking twice about enlisting with a controversial war underway and possible future military involvement. Since there are facts about how the national guard and reserves make up half of the force in iraq, a loss in future numbers could be important.

Civic_Zen wrote:

Quote:
the fact remains that no one in their sane mind wants to go to iraq. most of the enlisted don't know what they're doing over there.

I know, personally, quite a few. And even some that are coming out of high school right now who are enlisting. All of them are in there right mind. I have 1 good friend (who is female BTW) who joined the Air Force and is now flying reconnaissance missions now all over (she couldn't really go into details.) I have another friend who went into the Air Force Academy a while back and will probably see action if/when the time is right. In fact, being that the Air Force Academy is less then an Hours drive, I know quite a few cadets that would love it too. Granted, this is just because its cool to fly multi million $$ jets around, but take the kid living accross the street from me. He joined up AFTER Bush declared war on Iraq. Quit watching CNN since there is no way you can actually understand what your talking about, unless you know, personally, people over there right now.

Well this doesn't mean they know why they are there. There is always a group of people seeking to be hero's, or those who get a kick out of being a part of such an army (possibly satisfying their self egos) but in general no civilized person is running to stand in line to fight in a war. Would you?

Civic_Zen wrote:

Quote:
you can sense it in interviews, in letters but more so in their eyes.

You watch way too much media biased TV.

I try to watch other channels than fox.

Civic_Zen wrote:

Quote:
i doubt a full on draft will ever be passed and i don't want to think of the opposition it would have should it be (definitly worse than vietnam).

This is one of the only sensable things you've said in this whole post. The draft won't happen, and yet, its the democrats that used this line of thinking so they could scare young people into voting for Kerry. And people wonder why Kerry lost, what a joke.

I'm glad you found some sense. You should also know there are other reasons why kerry lost but that reps blew this up, making it into a major issue. Personally, bush winning is even a bigger joke.

ps. It's good to have a discussion but one needs to always remember we are discussing ideology, nothing personal, so staying polite and respectful is essential.

pss. consider yourself special, this editing took me quite some time I doubt I'll do it again

[Civic_Zen]

Blue and Red, Red and Blue. But the world is orange and so are you.

Any way, I get what your saying, but I'm not the one who believes there will be a draft. In fact, I would bet on the fact that there won't be. Thats why I'm not running to join the military. Except I don't think that my friends, and people that I know are just wanting to be hero's. The psychology goes much deeper then that.

As for watching Fox, its all biased. My point is, you can't watch TV, the channel is irrelevant, at all and then form an opinion on how people would be out of their mind to fight a war. The point is that I know people, who thus, know people. And yet out of all these people (who once again, all have their wits about them) rarely have anything negative to say about what they are doing in Iraq, and Afghanastan. And yet you turn on the TV and you would think there is about to be a revolt by the military.

I do realize we are talking idealogy, I didn't say anything disrespectful did I? I apoligize if I did. I can understand if my "tone" so to speak was indicative of ushering my own opinion over yours, but I don't really apologize for that. Don't take it the wrong way or anything, but the fact is that I know people, and they know people, so when it comes down I know a lot of people. And it seems to me that if anything CNN has been showing was even close to anything but the absolute smallest of minorities, then I would have heard one of them saying something negative, even if it was small. Whereas the only thing negative is what you would expect "I'm homesick" "Cant wait to party when I get home" Never anything like "Bush is an Ass" "I don't want to die for Iraqie scumbags, let them do there own work" Thats all I'm saying here.

And BTW, I wouldn't run to join, No, because my comment would be one of the previous : "I don't want to die for Iraqie scumbags, let them do there own work"

[ftc]

hope you liked the nifty layout.
I'm happy for you that you know alot of people. I personally don't know anyone serving or who has served in Iraq. But being across the world from you gives me a different window for looking at things. I fully understand the discipline involved in military service. Obviously, once you enlist you are bearing in mind that if a war should break out you might get sent and death is an outcome of war. The moment you join the military, common sense is left at the door and it's impossible trying to justify every order every decission. you'd go crazy. One thing I've noticed is that you always seem to be concentrating on the extremes. What you keep forgetting is that the reason USA invaded Iraq is because it felt that it was a threat (atleast that's the reason it gave to the world but i believe those here on this board know better) Those service men & women now over there are thinking very hard on this question - was iraq a threat? did we really need to come here? where are those wmd's? i miss my family & kids...
Thats all I'm saying.

I wasn't specificly implying you were disrespectful, only a side note something to keep in mind (for everyone) However you could lower the tone a notch

and that fox thing was a joke.. seems to have flew over

[Yao]

Re: Backdoor Draft

Well FTC, me and Civic have had the same 'politeness' issue: we all tend to state things a bit harsher than needed to enfore our points made. That just shows we really are into it, and aren't just having some lame-ass discussion IMO.
We think it over twice, really hard, and then we state it. We believe in what we say. And that's also what I like about these discussions here: always on the edge, but if we threaten to go over, we back up ourselves. As we should.

Civic, you know we disagree at almost everything, so here it comes again :

you said you know people, and that they provide you with first or second-hand information, right? I've had the same thing with a friend in Bosnia, but I dont really think that being in the shit means you can actually give a well thought-over opinion. EG: The fact that your friends are in the army and have made that choice rationally doesn't mean that what they see or think is the truth.
One could even argue that especially people that are not in the military but keep up-to-date with all the available information have a better or maybe less biased view of the spoils or gains of this (or any) war.
That could be you, me, or anyone else around here.

You're very right about the media being biased, that is a given fact all over the planet. I personally think the truth is somewhere in the middle...it's very dangerous to take only one side as your source of knowledge, but it may be even more dangerous to ignore them all the same. Then you'll be uninformed, and I would (for earlier stated reasons) not take the acquitances in battle to be my primary souce of information. Seriously.

I really don't believe there's no soldier that doesn't dissaprove of the war and hates it, and thinks: what the fuck am I cleaning up this goatfucker mess around here?
But I also don't believe Moore saying all American soldiers saying that?

Like I said: keep yourself informed, and you'll find the truth somewhere in the middle.

[Balanc3]

YAO go team player! You couldn't have said it any better. Some of the new players don't always understand that there is a history of posts here and time again we have all found ourselves debating the same topics with a new bunch that comes along and start speaking there mind. Howvever there has been a surge since the election, some who have really lost it and their first posts in the forum were screaming I HATE AMERICA. It gets tiring.

You have been able to remain unbiased, unlike those who are so far one direction it just comes off a bit course. Everyone has their take on what to believe after reading a post and sometimes they don't come off right. The best thing is try not to come off like you are telling someone how to believe or what to think. Some people think they have an answer for everything, and everyone has the right to know how they think. But if you shove your shit down someone else's throat we are gonna have an argument. We don't all get our news from Faux and you best respect the Independent's :wink:

[Civic_Zen]

Re: Backdoor Draft

I really don't believe there's no soldier that doesn't dissaprove of the war and hates it, and thinks: what the fuck am I cleaning up this goatfucker mess around here?
But I also don't believe Moore saying all American soldiers saying that?

I never said that there are NO soldiers that feel this way, I just happen to be able to state, with a reasonable amount of statistical data, that people who feel the way FTC was implying they do are in the minority.

Michael Moore, CNN, these people interviewed the parents of these soldiers, that is not the same thing. Of course there family is like WTF, I don't want my son/daughter to die. But I can state with a clear analysis of the before mentioned stats, that this is definetely what FTC was implying. Which lead me to believe that he is basing his data on Moore, and CNN, which I can assure you is completely over stating any evidence they have to support such nonsense.

For the most part, I can safely say, with a certain degree of assumption of course, that more then 50% of the American soldiers in Iraq are not against the war. Where as they certainly question its validity at some points, and whether or not there are WMD, and so on. But WMD is a whole other argument altogether, but I can also state, safely, that these same soldiers aren't on the "THere are no WMD" band wagon. And have very valid arguments to believe otherwise.

[runningman]

well they might have to implement a draft in order to go into all those other countries like Iran and so on.. that would be unfortunate but calling a draft is not like sending you to your death.. it is an opportunity to prove what being an american is about.. you should want ot fight if your leader says it is at war..that is easy for me to say because i am canadian but if canada was at war i would sign.. no way am i living under someone elses flag.. i have read what everybody has said so far and i have to say i lean more to Civic then FTC.. where are you from FTC turkey i think?? just for later arguement i know.. from my canadian point of view is that if i were Prime Minister of my country we would be at war as well.. as for your army is thinning. no its not. it is everywhere in the world.. they might have to leave certain spots that they are peace keeping but the UN could come and fill out the peace keeping roll.. that is for u people out there that belive the UN does something (even though they do nothing).. by the time this war is over some 50,000 troops may die.. so the fact that iraq was overthrone and only 1,000 troops died is a major victory in my eyes.. let's get over the "every life is precious" thing and talk numbers.. More then 4 million people voted for Bush.. he won in electoral votes by a land slide.. 280 something to 210 something (can't remember exact numbers).. it isn't close.. So you people out there saying go door to door and try to "impeach" you are the problem with the USA.. it is your right to say you might not agree with Bush but he is your leader now.. so rally behind him because things could get worse.. What if CHina saw this as a weak moment for the US and invaded the USA with the backing of North Korea.. you guys would be iin deep shit.. now this is improbable but this is the image you guys are giving off.. which is way more dangerous then your army losing a thousand soldiers..

[Yao]

Thanx Balanc3, just so I know I'm still on the right track...Good to get support like this. Respect 2u2.

Civic, I think you have a good point about the soldiers there, although I wouldn't name any numbers without being sure. But if it's divided about the same as in the elections (which wouldn't surprise me), you could be about right.

I think CNN is about as unbiased as its gets in the US of A, but Moore is def a democratic fundamentalist, and anti-Bush on a personal level, too. I look at him, actually he annoys me.
It's easy to leave out the other side of a story when you're making a documentary, and that's exactly what he does. One-sided view.

I have no respect for anyone that thinks his truth is everybody's truth. Moore thinks liks that, and Bush too. Unfortunately.

Kerry is just a Demo-puppet.

[ftc]

i don't think i am making my self clear. what i meant by a 'thinning army' is that it has become less appealing to join now that there is a war. what's so hard in understanding this? you see, the US military is an employement opportunity where citizens can get and/or further an education, get a career and make the military a way of life by serving their country. But once you join the military you lose the freedom of arguing political decissions so the soldiers in Iraq haven't the luxury of deciding if they wan't to be there or not. They're following orders which resulted from their personal decission to enlist. So don't try to prove me wrong with stating the obvious. What I have been trying to point out is that should there be a draft there would be great division since not every citizen agrees to americas foreign policies. I have many friends in the ROTC who joined mainly for financial benefits for their schooling who disagree with the war in Iraq so quit giving me personal statistics each of us have our own. If you think I am solely basing my opinions on a single media source or an opinionated individual you are mistaken. Moore isn't the only person who has interviewed soldiers serving in Iraq or families who have lost a loved one in the war. Perhaps if some of you wouldn't accept everything they feed you and go in search for unbiased facts you would have a broader view on things with less extreme beliefs. the truth is out there, you just gotta want to find it.