Round 2?

[runningman]

he could have said that he thought it was propaganda to give the terrorist insight into what is going on.. apparently osama watched it by what he said in his last video..osama said it wouldn't matter if kerry or bush won that another attack is probable.. so unite behind bush because if u divide u will lose..

[neoee]

If Moore is allowed to put out another film, then Stolen Honor should be viewed on the national level as well. One thing for sure... Bush never tried to put a stop to any of the Anti-Bush propaganda. Books, movies, haven't phased him... now Kerry on the other hand would have your throat cut for trying, just like Sinclair. Freedom of what?!

Who is stopping them? They just need to find a distributor to pick it up. I know that Moore was dropped a time or two.

It really cracks me up that some of you have such a hard time with Moore and his views.

The guy make a movie for ENTERTAINMENT and PROFIT (and his agenda as well). He uses pieces of media and documents publically available (genius if you ask me). He has HIS view point and chooses to express it thru this form of media. He pushes his rights to free speech to the absolute limit. Based on what I've read and seen it must be true (why have no slander/lible suits been brought?).

Was he obligated to tell both sides of the story? NO
Did he break any laws? NO
Did he try to affect the turnout of the election by convincing others who to or not to vote for? YES- didn't you?
Has he done things that may be considered immoral- Thats for you and me to decide based on what he have embraced as "moral".

I suppose he was deserving of the thousands he made when he invited all the families and friends involved with Columbine to a screening of the film before it was released nationally, where he charged them all nearly 3 TIMES the normal rate to see a movie.

If they paid 3 times the normal rate to see it, who here would be the fool (unless you felt 3x to see it early was worth it)?

I suppose you believe that he is in the right when charging over $50,000 for a 2 hour "speech" at any given University around the country. Where the american taxpayers are paying to have his completely slanted and moronic viewpoint given to America's young intellectuals.

I must have missed something here. He must have done something illegal? Or maybe he was under civil obligation to do this for free or was it that it was somehow forced on the Universities to bring him in?

You all need to stop getting your panties all bunched up. And for this comment:

One thing for sure... Bush never tried to put a stop to any of the Anti-Bush propaganda.

toasty already addressed part of this but failed to mention that Bush and Co. have on many occasions tried to supress free speech (Bush anti-protest zones) in addition to violating our 4th, 5th and 6th amendment rights (Patriot Act).

[LobsterClan]

If Moore is allowed to put out another film, then Stolen Honor should be viewed on the national level as well. One thing for sure... Bush never tried to put a stop to any of the Anti-Bush propaganda. Books, movies, haven't phased him... now Kerry on the other hand would have your throat cut for trying, just like Sinclair. Freedom of what?!

You are grossly misinformed. When J.H Hatfield's book, Fortunate Son was published just before the election of 2000, the Bush team went directly to work on him-- claiming he was a paroled felon and all sorts of crap. Basically a total smear job on the author, which turns out to be untrue-- it was a different Hatfield, born the same day. The book claims that Bush was busted for cocaine possession in 1972, and that Poppy knew a judge who let him off-- he then went and volunteered for a couple of months, to pay off his debt to society.

Check it out: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...15804?v=glance

[LobsterClan]

charts are a good way to hide numbers

that chart looks like he won by 1 percent.. that would take a 6 % swing in the countries vote for it to be the other way around for Kerry..

Your math is godawful. Go back to high school. 51%-48% to switch it the other way around would be a 4% swing.

And that's just fooling with numbers. Straight up, 49% of the voters voted against Bush. That is far, far, from a landslide, and certainly no mandate.

[LobsterClan]

now Kerry on the other hand would have your throat cut for trying, just like Sinclair. Freedom of what?!

Ok, again, you do not seem to understand the issues involved with Sinclair broadcasting basically airing a giant commercial for Bush right before an election, and why this is illegal. It is a partisan exploitation of the airwaves, essentially giving Bush $9,900,000 worth of free airtime. This would be illegal based on campaign finance laws, unless they were to give equal time to the Kerry side of things.

Furthermore, it wasn't John Kerry that stopped this nonsense, it was concerned citizens, who called in to the local advertisers, claiming they would boycott those businesses if Sinclair did participate in such a thing. It also stopped because Sinclair's stock started to tank-- plenty of shareholders showed much concern over the fact that they would be playing commercial free, partisan dreck that would lose the company money.

I would urge you to read this letter from the Comptroller of NY, who was in direct control of 256,000 shares of Sinclair and had serious concerns about the choice to air Stolen Honor: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/atrios/sinclairny.pdf

[Balanc3]

Damn three posts in a row chief, must have a thorn in your butt. I undersrand that investers in Sinclair (Dems) who you call concerned citizens, threatened to sell if Sinclair aired the tape. So yes Sinclair would not air the tape for concerns of losing their asses. So concerned they were...

I urge you to finally watch stolen honor. Because those concerned citizens would have been outraged.

[Yao]

.. these people aren't normal people (muslims).. they cause troule wherever they go.. So Go Bush!!

Scuze me? They are not normal and cause trouble wherever they go?

For a fact, I've known enough Muslims in my life to get pretty worked up by a statement like this. I don't believe you're a racist, but this is crossing the line IMO.
One of the key features of a democratic society is MODERATION. That means putting the nuance in your thoughts, and not generalising. Especially not on a basis like this.

I have Muslim friends in Africa that will help me whenever I set foot on African soil. My friend Boure?ma saved my life when I had a serious illness out there in Burkina Faso, and paid for my medication. I owe my life to a Muslim, who helped me without regarding the fact that I'm not religious.
I am outraged by this statement of yours and deeply insulted. :cry:

It would have been a different thing if you had said that there is a part of the Muslim community in the world that doesn't seem to be able to progress morally and intellectually, and that is determined to impose their way on every other human being, with force/violence if needed. Those are the ones I hate, too.
But please stop generalising like this, or you'll insult more people than just me.

[ftc]

Civic_Zen wrote:

ftc wrote:

when i watched his movie my reaction was "only in america..." i think it's good he can do something like this and i look forward for his future work.

That is exactly right, only in this, the greatest of nations.

please spare me your nationalistic propaganda. thats pretty low

Civic_Zen wrote:

ftc wrote:

it's nothing but supply & demand. he deserves all the millions he makes.

I suppose you believe the students he knowingly exploited during the making of "Bowling for Columbine" were also deserving of that, since they helped him to make his first widely marketable film which landed him his first millions.

I suppose he was deserving of the thousands he made when he invited all the families and friends involved with Columbine to a screening of the film before it was released nationally, where he charged them all nearly 3 TIMES the normal rate to see a movie.

I suppose you believe that he is in the right when charging over $50,000 for a 2 hour "speech" at any given University around the country. Where the american taxpayers are paying to have his completely slanted and moronic viewpoint given to America's young intellectuals.

It's not my job to defend Moore or his way of self expression but as someone already stated, nothing he did was illegal. Everything he used in F9/11 (which is our subject - not "bowling for columbine") is at public dispose. I don't recall saying that "I believe everything he says" so please don't asume faulty impressions. Another sad but true fact is that people who don't know any better are those who give him his fame. How can anyone expect to learn about history and politics by watching a movie? Unfortunately the system in america highly depends on media input and personal decleration but how can you criticize Moore when its the people who make him rich? State schools which recive certain amount of taxpayer money have the right to do what they want with their funds so who are you to blame who? If the general public was more hands on with what was going on in the country and the rest of the world, they wouldn't need someone like Moore to arise interest. He's not doing this as a service to his citizens, he's in it for the money which entitles him the right to express whatever idea he wants. If you cannot filter truth from opinion it's your fault. If you don't agree on this, the only suggestion I see you having left is reduction in the freedoms available. So best stop hating on someone for other dissapointments and get rid of possible jealousy while you're at it.

[davetlv]

Straight up, 49% of the voters voted against Bush. That is far, far, from a landslide, and certainly no mandate.

Lobster, I will agree with you that a win of 51% - 48% is def. no landslide, however, whether you like it or not, he has won a mandate. (Any clear win offers him a mandate.)

[runningman]

charts are a good way to hide numbers

that chart looks like he won by 1 percent.. that would take a 6 % swing in the countries vote for it to be the other way around for Kerry..

Your math is godawful. Go back to high school. 51%-48% to switch it the other way around would be a 4% swing.

And that's just fooling with numbers. Straight up, 49% of the voters voted against Bush. That is far, far, from a landslide, and certainly no mandate.

How is it 4% idiot.. 3% divide them.. in order for kerry to be up 3% thaat would add up to 6%.. wow u guys are in more trouble then i thought..

[runningman]

.. these people aren't normal people (muslims).. they cause troule wherever they go.. So Go Bush!!

Scuze me? They are not normal and cause trouble wherever they go?

For a fact, I've known enough Muslims in my life to get pretty worked up by a statement like this. I don't believe you're a racist, but this is crossing the line IMO.
One of the key features of a democratic society is MODERATION. That means putting the nuance in your thoughts, and not generalising. Especially not on a basis like this.

I have Muslim friends in Africa that will help me whenever I set foot on African soil. My friend Boure?ma saved my life when I had a serious illness out there in Burkina Faso, and paid for my medication. I owe my life to a Muslim, who helped me without regarding the fact that I'm not religious.
I am outraged by this statement of yours and deeply insulted. :cry:

It would have been a different thing if you had said that there is a part of the Muslim community in the world that doesn't seem to be able to progress morally and intellectually, and that is determined to impose their way on every other human being, with force/violence if needed. Those are the ones I hate, too.
But please stop generalising like this, or you'll insult more people than just me.

that is a very touching story.. but look at what is going on in the world.. china now france, africa, russia, and the USA.. all have one thing in common.. muslim terrorists..i am not saying there aren't good muslim people out there.. but there religion is aggresive.. i have muslim friends and i have been honest with them.. My religion or race isn't flying planes into buildings.. I am irish.. the irish were the most hated people in the USA at one time.. if the the IRA drove a plane into a building in the USA then i would say i am part of the problem.. but i'm not.. it is time for the head muslim clerics to come out and turn osama and his gang over.. or at least a strong stand against it.. a parade or million man march.. nothing.. u know why?? because they support it..

[Yao]

Re: Round 2?

The Islam doesn't work the same way as Christianity, or the West for that matter. Don't expect the same kind of reactions, even though most Muslims disagree with the terrorism in the name of their lord.

Osama is persona non grata in Arabia, and his family has rejected him. There's so much talk for instance about the Saudi's having connections with the Bush-clan, but no-one ever mentions the fact that they have since long cast him out of their family. They do not support him, although I do believe there is an ambiguity in their stance: all this destabilising terrorism weakens the West, and gives economical advantage in the long run. They will not openly support an agressive spreading of the Islam, but might see it as a welcome side-effect.

As for your religion: it is Christian, right? Your religion (Bush) is now invading Middle-East countries removing dictators and acting as the world police. A few hundred years ago it was the Christian Crusaders going to eradicate all Muslims, killing men, children and the women after raping them countless times.
Since then it has on the one hand evolved into a more moderate religion, and on the other hand had it's hands tied down by secularisation of states and multi-party democracies.

A big difference is also this: Islam is a religion of laws. Christianity is a religion of guidelines. Jesus advocated a way of behaving towards your fellow human being. Mohammed was a man consulted in case of conflict, and his verdicts became from customary law locally to religious law in the Qu'ran after his death. The Qu'ran acts as a lawgiver, much like our constitution, and therefore any believing Muslim must act and live accordingly to it. That is why moderation is sometimes harder to achieve in Islamic countries than in Christian countries. But it is still only 0,001% (just to illustrate that it is a small number, don't take this serious please) that does not want to moderate and accept the world as it is now.

Try reading
An introduction to Islamic law - Joseph Schacht , and
A history of Islamic law - N.J. Coulson.

Both are pretty general books, not too detailed, and could give you some insight in this religion.

Happy reading.

[gokada]

when i watched his movie my reaction was "only in america..." i think it's good he can do something like this and i look forward for his future work.

That is exactly right, only in this, the greatest of nations.

it's nothing but supply & demand. he deserves all the millions he makes.

I suppose you believe the students he knowingly exploited during the making of "Bowling for Columbine" were also deserving of that, since they helped him to make his first widely marketable film which landed him his first millions.

I suppose he was deserving of the thousands he made when he invited all the families and friends involved with Columbine to a screening of the film before it was released nationally, where he charged them all nearly 3 TIMES the normal rate to see a movie.

I suppose you believe that he is in the right when charging over $50,000 for a 2 hour "speech" at any given University around the country. Where the american taxpayers are paying to have his completely slanted and moronic viewpoint given to America's young intellectuals.

The only thing Moore is deserving of is swift kick in the ass. He will get his someday, karma is a wonderful thing.

He probably also believes that Moore was deserving of the millions he made and the Oscar he won when he exploited the families of U.S. soldiers in Fahrenheit 9/11, and the lies he made up about the supposed oil pipeline deal that Halliburton supposedly wanted to run through Afghanistan, and the fact that he said (and it's on video) that "there is no terrorist threat". He went onto say that yes, there were terrorist attacks perpetrated on the U.S. and it's interests (USS Cole, American Embassy's, WTC in 1993), and there will likely be more terrorist attacks in the near future, but that doesn't mean there some wide threat of terror. Ummm, excuse me? If terrorist attacks have happened in the past and will likely happen in the near future, doesn't that constitute a threat? My idiot roommate voted for Bush, but then he watched F9/11 and wished he had voted for that French looking guy. I asked why and he said that F9/11 was an eyeopener. I told him to watch Fahrenhype 9/11 if he wants to see the other side of Moore's fairy tale. This is the funny part...my roommate went on to say "well there's propaganda from both sides"...In other words, the dumb ass just admitted to believing propaganda....what a maroon....