Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[Yao]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

^^ You're right on a couple different levels.

I always wonder what all these people who say they are so against war would do if some terrorist fuck showed up on their doorstep and slaughted their entire family. I guran-fucking-tee they would say one of two things:

1. How could someone let this happen.

2. Where is the nearest gun.

Some people either can't or don't want to realize that they would kill every last one of us (Americans, that is) if given the chance. And they chastise us like little children who "know not what they do" for supporting the man who is trying to ensure that never happens. Whatever, I'm sure most of them are against the war because it's a war, and you are not supposed to support a war because war is bad. Not realizing that this is how every single major civilaztion in human history has been founded. Its the way of the world people...your self richeous, peace loving wishes of diplomacy and reasoning don't exist in the new post 9/11 world. Especially not against this enemy.

I mean could you seriously see Osama and Al-Zukari (spelling) sitting at a table negotiating an end to all of this violence in the Middle East??? Please. If you can I would love to know what color the sky is on the planet you're from. All they want is to kill anyone who stands in their way and then rule over the rest with fear and brutality. It's that simple. Yet some of you go on and on and on and on and on and on bitching and denouncing the only way that we can stop them. It's really quite comical some times. You are so blinded by the belief that war is bad and there should be no war, you don't even stop to think there is no other way. It's kill them before they kill us.

Sad but true...

I'm not going to repeat in detail what I've said about the motivation of Osama on this stuff Evangelion, read some of my posts on that.

I don't believe they want to kill everyone and rule the rest with fear and brutality, they just want the West to get the fuck off their property, if you get what I mean.
Reading Osama's statement should have already made this clear to you.

As for my first reaction when something like that happened to me: I'm pretty sure I'd have the two thoughts you described, but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that. Violence is always the first reaction, the art is to look beyond that and search for a solution to the problem, not just to combat the symptoms of the 'disease'. At least, that is how I feel it.

Bush's reaction was expressing that what every American wanted to do after 9/11, but it didn't and will not solve any problems in the long run. Along with the lying about the WMD's, and the false connection with Al-Qu'aida that has made me a firm opposer of the war in Iraq.
People have let themselves be lead by emotion rather than rationale.

Never stop thinking for yourself, don't just go with the flow. (only when you're having sex). :wink:

[evangelion]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

You missed my point entirely. It has nothing to do with being blind to information. It's the thought that they (you, whoever) thinks and honestly feels that they have all of the information.

The person I was responding to used the fact that the Bin Ladens were flown out of their country on 9/11, not even acknowledging or referencing the fact that they have had nothing to do with him for going on 20 years. His actions are in no way tied to the Bin Laden family. But hey...Micheal Moore says it's important and golly gee it's one more thing to bash Bush about so I think I'll bring it up for the 1,000,000,000,000,000 time, even though it's been debunked as having no bearing on anything ages ago.

It's this holier than thou, I'm anti-war so I'm obviously more informed, I can rattle off the top 100 things Bush has done wrong off the top of my head, you need to reseach your facts from real news source and turn off CNN, Fox News and MSNBC because they are paid by the government to spread false information attitude I was addressing.

I'm sick of it...nothing more, nothing less.

[Yao]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

Well mate, we do agree on Michael Moore using this information to create the image of Bush being linked to Osama. And we also agre in disliking the man for that, right?

Moore is a democratic fundamentalist IMO, he may have made some good points in his docu, but he sure is carrying this air of knowing all that is right and teaching the common people the right way too heavily.
I think any American would consider me very liberal, but he even annoys me.

Since the start of the war, I have not heard a single argument in favour of it that has really made me reconsider my stance on it. Not a single one. Basically I have seen the same reasons get repeated over and over again, and of course the dems and I, too, have repeated the same arguments against it over and over, but so far I've seen the dems/libs backing up their opinions a bit more with numbers and facts than the reps.

You will probably disagree with me on this, but I'm used to people disagreeing with me on a full-time basis since I joined this forum...

[evangelion]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

I'm not going to repeat in detail what I've said about the motivation of Osama on this stuff Evangelion, read some of my posts on that.

I don't believe they want to kill everyone and rule the rest with fear and brutality, they just want the West to get the fuck off their property, if you get what I mean.
Reading Osama's statement should have already made this clear to you.

As for my first reaction when something like that happened to me: I'm pretty sure I'd have the two thoughts you described, but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that. Violence is always the first reaction, the art is to look beyond that and search for a solution to the problem, not just to combat the symptoms of the 'disease'. At least, that is how I feel it.

Bush's reaction was expressing that what every American wanted to do after 9/11, but it didn't and will not solve any problems in the long run. Along with the lying about the WMD's, and the false connection with Al-Qu'aida that has made me a firm opposer of the war in Iraq.
People have let themselves be lead by emotion rather than rationale.

Never stop thinking for yourself, don't just go with the flow. (only when you're having sex). :wink:

Please tell me what 9/11 had to with "getting the fuck off of their property" and not killing as many innocent American at one time as possible. Osama himself said it was an act of venenge that he had been plotting for almost 20 years.

It won't solve anything in the long run, huh? So tell me, what is your solution?? Try to negotiate and politic our way to peace?? Should he have begged Hitler to stop killing people?? Maybe if we asked really nicely he would have stopped right. Come on. Some people only understand one thing...brute military force. They are so stuck up their own ass that it really does take a M1 Abrams or a smart bomb to get it out. Once they realize that someone in this world is not going to stand idlely by and watch them do whatever it is that they are doing, they will think long and hard about doing it again. More times than not that responsiblity falls on us, the good 'ol US of A. I wonder why there wasn't been another terror attack since 9/11??

So here we go to your points:

1. lying about the WMD's - Old and tired, he was given misinformation. And anyone who really thinks that he didn't have any is lying to themselves and personally trying to justify their opposition to the war and Bush. Like he was going to just leave them there for us to find. Right.

2. the false connection with Al-Qu'aida - Like they are going to come out and say "Yeah, we were all in it together, come kill us all please." Al-Queda = terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist, thus Saddam more than likely had connections to Al-Queda. Plus, I really don't see why that matters as much as the anti-war set would have everyone believe. We were already seaching for Osama, so we should just sit back and...what, wait to find him and do nothing to stop the spread and supporters of terrorism in the meantime?? One at a time please..take a number.

It's a war on terrorism, not a war on Osama Bin Laden, Al-Queda or Saddam Hussein. And anyone who could say that Saddam was not terrorists with a straight face is a gifted human being.



"but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that."

My point exactly!!!! Up on your high horse, looking down at me and saying "I would stop to rationalize that my family has just had their heads cut off and bodies mutilated with baseball bats and from there I would deceide the best course of action based the positive and negative outcome of the pending situation." So cool, calm and rational. Right, until it happens...then all of that BS going flying out the window. GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!

There is one difference between us dude...I support the war, you don't. All of that Zen, I'm a logical thinker and don't let my emotions cloud my judgement crap is your way of justifying your oppsistion to it. I don't need any of that...I support it, I've got me reasons. If you don't support it, don't try to change my mind.

[Yao]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

Please tell me what 9/11 had to with "getting the fuck off of their property" and not killing as many innocent American at one time as possible. Osama himself said it was an act of venenge that he had been plotting for almost 20 years.

Yes, and did you read about his reasons? But he picked up some more along the way to fulfilling his wish.

It won't solve anything in the long run, huh? So tell me, what is your solution?? Try to negotiate and politic our way to peace?? Should he have begged Hitler to stop killing people?? Maybe if we asked really nicely he would have stopped right. Come on. Some people only understand one thing...brute military force. They are so stuck up their own ass that it really does take a M1 Abrams or a smart bomb to get it out. Once they realize that someone in this world is not going to stand idlely by a watch them do whatever it is that they are doing, they will think long and hard about doing it again. I wonder why there wasn't been another terror attack since 9/11??

They needn't come to you now, there's enough Americans to be slain in Iraq. Don't compare Hitler to Saddam Evangelion, you know as well as I do that they are 2 different persons in 2 different situations.

Did you notice any extremists surrendering saying the beating they got made them come to their senses? I've only seen the violence and resistance against US forces grow, but maybe I'm blind. The harder you beat them, the angrier they seem to get.

1. lying about the WMD's - Old and tired, he was given misinformation. And anyone who really thinks that he didn't have any is lying to themselves and personally trying to justify their opposition to the war and Bush. Like he was going to just leave them there for us to find. Right.

Misinformation yes, but those were still lies, no? Being it lies from the CIA and Defense in this case I believe (correct me if I'm wrong). So Bush went to war based on lies. I didn't include a paragraph saying it had to be a product of Bush's mind...

2. the false connection with Al-Qu'aida - Like they are going to come out and say "Yeah, we were all in it together, come kill us all please." Al-Queda = terrorists. Saddam was a terrorist, thus Saddam more than likely had connections to Al-Queda. Plus, I really don't see why that matters as much as the anti-war set would have everyone believe. We were already seaching for Osama, so we should just sit back and...what, wait to find him and do nothing to stop the spread and supporters of terrorism in the meantime?? One at a time please..take a number.

Do you have proof of those connections? Don't think so, it is all assumption. Even your own commission concluded there was no proof of a link. Which also doesn't exclude it, but somehow I feel it would have been more obvious if Saddam had any links to A-Q. Maybe they wouldn't have let him rot in that basement, for instance.
1+1=2 does not equal Saddam+A-Q=terrorists.

It's a war on terrorism, not a war on Osama Bin Laden, Al-Queda or Saddam Hussein. And anyone who could say that Saddam was not terrorists with a straight face is a gifted human being.

I am not that gifted, sorry.

I support the war on terrorism, you would have known that if you had taken the time to read some of my previous posts, but I do not support the way it is fought. Terrorism is underground, and will not be eradicated by invading a whole country or changing a regime.
I'd rather put my hopes on intelligence and special ops, and they've had some good results in the past.
Most bombings or attacks that are prevented are the result of good intelligence, not the army crushing down on a whole area.

"but there's one difference between you and me: I don't stop thinking at that."

My point exactly!!!! Up on your high horse, looking down at me and saying "I would stop to rationalize that my family has just had their heads cut off and bodies mutilated with baseball bats and from there I would deceide the best course of action based the positive and negative outcome of the pending situation." So cool, calm and rational. Right, until it happens...then all of that BS going flying out the window. GET OVER YOURSELF!!!!

There is one difference between us dude...I support the war, you don't. All of that Zen, I'm a logical thinker and don't let my emotions cloud my judgement crap is your way of justifying your oppsistion to it. I don't need any of that...I support it, I've got me reasons. If you don't support it, don't try to change my mind.

I don't look down on you, I'm merely pointing out a difference between us, aight? You can interpret things your way if you want to, I didn't mean it like that.
But I did admit to those other emotions. I'm only human too, and there's been enough occasions in my life that have proven that. But after the first reaction I do start looking beyond that, yes. And if you think I'm arrogant for pointing out this difference between us, then so be it.
Think you're the only one that has has hard times in his life? Sorry to dissapoint you...you don't know the half of me.

Seems we're not gonna keep this discussion cool and calm, so let's call it a day eh? No hard feelings here. I'm off to bed, it's 3 am here and I'm tired.

Nighty night!

[evangelion]

A couple things then I'm done:

1. I didn't compare anyone to anyone. I asked a question.

2. They will never come to their sense. Thus is the tragic truth that in order to defeat them they will have to die.

3. Bush didn't know he was being misinformed (lied to in your world), but it's still his fault he went to war based on that information?? If I tell you that water polo is fun and exciting and do everything I can to make you think the same, then you try it yourself and it isn't, is that your fault???

4. No, of course I don't have proof (I thought for a second there you were going to tell me to research my info). Al-Queda = terrorists, Saddam = terrorist...connection. A direct link, no...but again, tell me with a straight face that terrorists aren't in touch and in league with other terrorists.

5. Who said anyhthing about hard times in life?

6. This discussion can stay as cool and calm as it wants. You obviously have never had one with me or you would know that this is how I discuss.

7. Of course no hard feelings. Why would you even bother to say that?

[brakada]

2. They will never come to their sense. Thus is the tragic truth that in order to defeat them they will have to die.

In that case a lot of people will have to be killed, but hey, the world is getting overpopulated, anyway. :wink: Killing people is only a short-term solution, it doesn't solve anything in the long-term. Like Yao said it's the desease that must be cured, not the symptoms.

3. Bush didn't know he was being misinformed (lied to in your world), but it's still his fault he went to war based on that information?? If I tell you that water polo is fun and exciting and do everything I can to make you think the same, then you try it yourself and it isn't, is that your fault???

If you do it to me, it's not that bad, but if you do that to most of the world (which in fact divided it), things get an entirely new dimension. He should take some of the responsibility (not all, but at least some).

4. No, of course I don't have proof (I thought for a second there you were going to tell me to research my info). Al-Queda = terrorists, Saddam = terrorist...connection. A direct link, no...but again, tell me with a straight face that terrorists aren't in touch and in league with other terrorists.

Personally, IMO Sadaam was not a terrorist. He was a (cruel) dictator, responsible for many deaths (mostly his "own" people's deaths). It's true he supported Palestinian terrorists (IMO that's what most Arab countries do), but I think that the Palestinian terrorism would be easier solved by solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, than by invading Iraq, don't you. However, the fact that bothers me most is, that the war on terror, is not only a war on terrorism. OK, the attack on Afganistan was justified (I disapproved it, because I'm anti-war, true), but then came the attack on Iraq, which had COMPLETELY NOTHING to do with terrorism (except for the forementioned support of Palestinian terrorists). That's the point when I started having doubts about Bush's motives. The invasion on Iraq changed a country without terrorism (although with a very bad leader) into a hotbed of terrorism... It actually increased the number of terrorists. :? Now, that is just strange. Don't you think so? If I get back to the war on terror, if I might still understand how Iran fits into the war on terror, since it has quite openly supported terrorism, the logic fails again completely when we get to North Korea. How many North Korean terrorists have you heard of? Pesonally, none. It's true, North Koreans are trying to get the nukes, but (again this is only my opinion) I believe no country is that stupid to invade the US, since that would mean it's own inevitable and permanent destruction.

5. Who said anyhthing about hard times in life?

I believe that Yao meant to say it's not only the Americans who feel threatened by terrorisms and muslims. As you may know the Netherlands are facing quite a crisis at the moment.

6. This discussion can stay as cool and calm as it wants. You obviously have never had one with me or you would know that this is how I discuss.

I know your style evangelion (the fiery preacher :wink: ), but couldn't we sometimes lead a discussion in a bit more civilised way. All liberals were not enlightened by M&M's documentaries and don't believe everything they are fed by the "liberal" media. SOME of us really try to get as much information as they can from "left and right" sources and just like you, try to decide which to believe. We try to respect our political "opponents", which is kind of hard with all the name calling and insulting from the other side. :wink:

7. Of course no hard feelings. Why would you even bother to say that?

[Yao]

I won't bother to say that again Evangelion, I'll keep in mind your style of discussion (the Fiery Preacher, I should've known that when I saw your name). We have indeed not had many encounters before on this board, but that'll probably change from now on :wink: .

Brakada has prett much said it all I think, I don't think I could say it any better. And yes, the Netherlands are currently rethinking their current status and the way it will have to deal with extremism from now on. I bet there is an increasing number people here supporting the war in Iraq now, thnks to mister Mohammed B.

To add insult to injury, we had a converted Muslim (Christian > Muslim) on a show last week, who expressed his wish that one of our more right-winged parliamentarians, Geert Wilders (who has this horrific blonde hair dye btw), would die within the next two years. He did not wan that to happen by violence or murder, but preferrably in a natural way like a disease or something alike.

This country is now wondering how it even got so far that people can vent opinions like that on national tv, whilst our government keeps urging all Christian Dutch citizens to remain calm.
The general consensus here is that out government has given extrememists and foreign elements too much freedom, and that we should return back to a more nationalistic policy.
I partially support this, but not totally. I want people from outside to abide by our constitution if they want to live here. We have all agreed on the way in which we'd like to live in this country, which is recorded in the constitution, and if people do not agree with that, they should not stay here.

I do not, however, agree with just bluntly kicking all Muslims and other foreigners out. I am not xenophobic, and I think my study proves that. But whereas I do respect other cultures, I do expect them to respect mine in return. When that is not the case, the line is crossed and in that case I empower my government to return those people to their own country.

I have always liked the idea of a multi-cultural society, all colors and beliefs living side by side. Whereas most of my relatives and acqaintances are afraid when they saw Surinams or people from the Netherlands Antilles, I have many friends or acqaintances among them.
Yes, I get greeted by 'criminals' on the street

But it seems the government has confused hospitality with tolerating elements that are anti-social and anti-constitutional around here, and now they're in deep shit trying to fix it...

[fishingnut]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

^^ You're right on a couple different levels.

I always wonder what all these people who say they are so against war would do if some terrorist fuck showed up on their doorstep and slaughted their entire family. I guran-fucking-tee they would say one of two things:

1. How could someone let this happen.

2. Where is the nearest gun.

you forgot one more, Where's my lawyer?

[asdf_admin]

"asdf and runningman...you guys are such groupies

herded fools"

lol.

i am really not sure who the fool is ...

[evangelion]

The fiery preacher???? Ummm...OK.

For future reference my name comes from an anime called Neon Genesis Evangelion. And yes brakada I can have a discussion in a civilized manner, which I do. I don't name call, shit talk or tell anyone else their opinion is stupid, wrong or unfounded. What's not civilized about that?

[Yao]

I wasn't referring to your name when I said the fier preacher, although now that you mention it...the link is obvious. Nice name anyway, I don't really watch a lot of anime/manga stuff.

I only remember Akira and a few other ones But this is waaaay offtopic.

[evangelion]

I only remember Akira and a few other ones But this is waaaay offtopic.

Topic shmopic...Akira is a classic. Not just in anime, but in animation period.

[Yao]

Damn, I think we killed this topic off, hahahaa!

Let's go back to the point where we didn't agree....oh yeah, just read my ost on the situation in my country and then comment on that. I'm curious to what you think of that, given the info you have.

[robprunzit]

I wish we would use the resources the good Lord gave us in our own land, but of course, TFEL EHT, (thats the left backward - as they are) would not allow us to use alittle bit of our beautifu ice fields because of some ice grazing-mating reindeer.

The Saudis have made so much money off of us, they wouldn't starve for 100 years on the bank accounts they have buried.