When Torture Is Appropriate

[toasty]

I've taken the position on this forum in the past that the United States should not torture people in its custody, partially because it's ineffective -- someone being tortured will tell you anything to get it to stop -- and partially because we just shouldn't, that it is beneath us as a nation.

I am, however, willing to make an exception for these guys:

SAN JUAN, Puerto Rico – Five men charged in the Sept. 11 attacks mock U.S. authorities and proclaim themselves "terrorists to the bone" in a war crimes court filing released Tuesday.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cb_guantanamo_sept11_trial

One of my biggest problems with torture, apart from the fact that we lose the claim to any moral high ground when we do it, is that it allows the captor to take the place of the justice system, effectively punishing someone before they've been adjudicated as having actually done anything wrong. When someone like this comes out, though, and basically says, "Hey, we did it, we're happy we did it, and we'd do it again," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them -- especially when they're not citizens.

I suppose that makes me a hypocrite of sorts, but under the circumstances, I'll take it.

[Steve Graham]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

fine, just kill them behind closed doors.. no media, no fan fare.. nothing to let anyone of their scum bag "supporters" know what has happened as they can not be viewed as matyrs to anyone but themselves.. and what will that get them? fuck all but a ticket to hell

[toasty]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Honestly, for people like these five, I think throwing them into the general population at Leavenworth and just letting our nation's finest hardened criminals sodomize them for the rest of their lives would be fitting. Pretty sure that's a fate worse than death for hardcore Islamic extremists, seriously.

[MJDub]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Honestly, for people like these five, I think throwing them into the general population at Leavenworth and just letting our nation's finest hardened criminals sodomize them for the rest of their lives would be fitting. Pretty sure that's a fate worse than death for hardcore Islamic extremists, seriously.

And serve them pork wrapped in sausage wrapped in bacon every day.

[superdave]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I wouldn't condone torture simply because they were proud of the 9/11 attacks. Sure, these are bad guys, but I wouldn't allow my anger with them to persuade me to torture these guys. Quite honestly, I expect nothing less from these terrorists. Put them on trial and hand them executions or whatever punishment is decided upon.

I would only condone torture if there were an imminent attack or extreme emergency situation that endangers many lives. See the show 24 for examples.

[Steve Graham]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I wasnt meaning torture in my post, just execute them

[Shpira]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I think enough people have suffered and died in the 9/11 attacks and as a result of them...I think all those involved in anyway should serve a prison sentence.

I also think that if you are talking about what is "bellow a nation like the US" you should think about all the people of other nations who will never see justice for the crimes committed by US army personnel and other US citizens. There are very prominent US citizens (e.g. Kissinger) who are wanted by the international war crimes tribunal but will never be extradited.
IMHO That should be something the US public should deal with before looking for justice for the crimes against the US.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them -- especially when they're not citizens.

thats the bit that makes it hypocritical.
If they were born in the states then no torture, born in mid-east - torture away!



but also
- ""When someone like this comes out, though, and basically says, "Hey, we did it, we're happy we did it, and we'd do it again," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them....."

as I'm sure you are aware in your field of work - there are plenty of US born rapists and murders - who profess the same thing - so are you ok to torture them?

[toasty]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

OK, right off the bat, I was a bit pissed off when I wrote the original post, not sure I'd take exactly the same position now. With that said...

thats the bit that makes it hypocritical.
If they were born in the states then no torture, born in mid-east - torture away!

Well, I honestly meant that more as a statement in favor of the preservation of the constitutional rights for our citizens regardless of the situation rather than going out of our way to deny rights to non-citizens, mid-eastern or otherwise. Doesn't really read that way, I see, but my intended point was that the deprivation of constitutional rights is of no consequence as far as I'm concerned when the person whose rights are being deprived is not a citizen. My opposition to torture in the past has been based more upon the Geneva Conventions and common human decency than a desire to extend constitutional protections to non-citizens.

but also
- ""When someone like this comes out, though, and basically says, "Hey, we did it, we're happy we did it, and we'd do it again," I'm not that concerned about what happens to them....."

as I'm sure you are aware in your field of work - there are plenty of US born rapists and murders - who profess the same thing - so are you ok to torture them?

No, but I see that differently. A rapist or murderer typically directs his actions at one particular person, or maybe a small group of people, whereas an admitted terrorist has goals that are designed to affect all of us, even if only indirectly. For the record, I do think that there are murderers and rapists out there that probably deserve a healthy ration of cruel and unusual punishment, but our justice system has decreed that that not happen, and I'm OK with that.

Ultimately, though, the fact that I would give the green light as to this particular bunch of folks is that I feel like making statements like this are effectively daring us to mess with them, and because there's no chance of unfairly punishing someone who is innocent. Be careful what you wish for, IMO.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I did wonder if your initial post was a heat of the moment thing tbh!

Ultimately, though, the fact that I would give the green light as to this particular bunch of folks is that I feel like making statements like this are effectively daring us to mess with them, and because there's no chance of unfairly punishing someone who is innocent. Be careful what you wish for, IMO.

there is a no chance that one of these idiots had a small role to play - but they have exaggerated their role for martyrdom ???
hence a small margin of error to torture the wrong person, but a margin of error nonetheless?

OR admitted their guilt of a significant role only under torture to begin with?



"No, but I see that differently. A rapist or murderer typically directs his actions at one particular person, or maybe a small group of people, whereas an admitted terrorist has goals that are designed to affect all of us, even if only indirectly. "

so the more people you rape and kill the more likely you are to agree with their torture? Its a correlation?

[toasty]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

there is a no chance that one of these idiots had a small role to play - but they have exaggerated their role for martyrdom ???
hence a small margin of error to torture the wrong person, but a margin of error nonetheless?

OR admitted their guilt of a significant role only under torture to begin with?

Well, the atmospherics surrounding these admissions didn't suggest to me that this was coerced, so I didn't really consider that as a possibility. If they chose to exaggerate their own role in the interest of martyrdom, I think they have to be ready for the consequences of that decision, which is that otherwise peace-loving people like myself will say, "Hey, torture away, these guys have earned it -- if not by their deeds, then by their completely callous disregard for human life."

"No, but I see that differently. A rapist or murderer typically directs his actions at one particular person, or maybe a small group of people, whereas an admitted terrorist has goals that are designed to affect all of us, even if only indirectly. "

so the more people you rape and kill the more likely you are to agree with their torture? Its a correlation?

Not in terms of raw numbers -- more a question of intent. For most murderers, I'm assuming the calculus is, "I want that person dead" -- it's a personal thing that society as a whole isn't really involved in, apart from the need to see that an appropriate punishment is doled out. The terrorist thing is an affront to all of us, and if someone is going to kill 3000 people and then go out of his way to cheerlead the death of every remaining living person in this country, hey, you can only poke the bear for so long.

I freely acknowledge that it may be hypocritical and that it may not make a lot of sense. I just view these guys differently, and it has nothing to do with their citizenry and everything to do with their words and actions.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

. The terrorist thing is an affront to all of us, and if someone is going to kill 3000 people and then go out of his way to cheerlead the death of every remaining living person in this country, hey, you can only poke the bear for so long.

I dont disagree - but isnt the bear already bombing the fuck out of their homeland - how does torturing these 5 individuals help the bear prevent future acts?

."I freely acknowledge that it may be hypocritical and that it may not make a lot of sense. I just view these guys differently, and it has nothing to do with their citizenry and everything to do with their words and actions.

I'm sure the Iranians or Yemenis' or Liberians view NATO forces differently - and view their words and actions as cheerleading the death of their society. But it doesn't give them the right to torture NATO forces IMO. Ie who gets to decide what words are actions are worthy of an individual being tortured?
If the Geneva Conventions and common human decency apply - then they should apply to everyone - no matter how big a psychopathic cunt you are?

[toasty]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

I dont disagree - but isnt the bear already bombing the fuck out of their homeland - how does torturing these 5 individuals help the bear prevent future acts?

Oh, it doesn't at all. Purely my own sadistic, primal desire for retribution.

I'm sure the Iranians or Yemenis' or Liberians view NATO forces differently - and view their words and actions as cheerleading the death of their society. But it doesn't give them the right to torture NATO forces IMO. Ie who gets to decide what words are actions are worthy of an individual being tortured?
If the Geneva Conventions and common human decency apply - then they should apply to everyone - no matter how big a psychopathic cunt you are?

Yeah, you're probably ultimately right on this -- like I said a few posts ago, this post was the result of a kind of visceral reaction for me. Sorta like, "OK, I'm against torture 99.9% of the time -- but these 5 guys have earned it." I certainly can't claim that everything I post makes a hell of a lot of sense...

[chunky]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

See the show 24 for examples.

To this day there has never been a ticking time bomb scenario where torture has been the only way of extracting information in order to prevent a terrorist attack.

There was a total lack of transparency regarding The 9-11 Commission Report and so many unanswered questions it makes anything these men say just sound like nonsense.

[DIDI]

Re: When Torture Is Appropriate

Torture is never appropriate.