What is your solution to the Middle East??

**cosmo** · November 23, 2004, 05:15:55 PM

c. Saddam's regime was far more brutal then many of us want to admit. The stories of torture, rape and murder convinced me that the Middle East specifically, and the world generally, would be a better place with him removed.

I was thinking of the comparisons of him(Saddam) and Zarqawi(the terrorist circiling Fallujah recently). Think of the 20 slaughterhouses that encompassed Fallujah before we moved in. Gasses and mixes were found in bombmaking factories in Fallujah.

Kind of reminds you of Saddams tyranny, doesn't it?

Isn't the mindset set at parallels as that of Zarqawi?

Its wonderful talking with someone halfway around the world in Israel about what we face today..

**Yao** · November 23, 2004, 08:30:15 PM

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

1. Where do you stand on the war on Iraq?

Against it.
Started on false or at least unproven accusations that Saddam had WMD?s, and now that they haven?t been found (no, I don?t see the Sarin vials as the 500 metric tonnes of WMD?s expected) it has switched to: the world is a better place without Saddam. Lame excuse.

2. Where do you stand on the war on terror?

All in favour.
As long as the right tools are used to find and destroy them. So no invasions and regime changes. Intelligence and co?peration between police forces and intelligence bureaus internationally have yielded and will yield more results, with less collateral damage.

3. What is your plan to prevent another 9-11?

Difficult question. It?s not about a plan, it?s about creating an environment in which terrorism doesn?t flourish. The way the US is dealing with this, is actually nurturing the moral feeding grounds of terrorism: it doesn?t try in any way to generate understanding among the extremists, to change their perception of the Western culture.
At this moment, all prejudices any extremist could possibly have are confirmed by the way the US is handling things. The only thing keeping Europe from going the same way is it?s moderated reaction on the current events.

So maybe a different approach to the Middle East would help, and putting pressure on both Sharon and the new leader of the PA to get the peace process going again?
And not attacking Iran, but increasing the effort to leave behind an economically healthy and politically stable Iraq should have priority. That would be a better way of convincing other Arab countries of the good intentions of the US and Europe.

4. Do you think that the war will end after (if) Iran?

I hope before Iran. An invasion in Iran is unjustifyable, certainly now it has agreed with Germany, France and Great-Britain that it will stop enriching Uranium.
If it doesn?t stop after Iraq, it?s not gonna stop after Iran either. In that case I fear total crusade into the Arab world.

I still hope and think the reform-oriented forces will prevail in Iran, it?s just a matter of time. Not every revolution takes place in a few days. Go Khatami, Go!! (sorry, I just let myself go there?)

Other than that: You owe your freedom to France, so leave them out of it. France and Germany give Europe it?s political face internationally, the UK is nothing more than the US?s lapdog at the moment.
I wish my country would have a little French temper in politics. They don?t give a shit about what the rest thinks, just like the US.

I hope the Canadian PM speaks French.

**davetlv** · November 23, 2004, 08:56:32 PM

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

Originally posted by Yao

So maybe a different approach to the Middle East would help, and putting pressure on both Sharon and the new leader of the PA to get the peace process going again?

You know what my friend, i am getting sick and tired of comments like this. Review history. Every time Israel (regardless of who was Prime Minister) engaged in, what it thought was, serious negotiations, the door was firmly slammed shut by the PA. Let the international community once and for all take this opportunity and put the pressure for once on the PA. Let what ever Palestinian leadership that emerges disable its terror groups and you will see the citizens of this beautiful country of mine will put pressure on Sharon.

The only bloody reason he was elected was because of the PA's removing its self from the peace process and reverting back to terrorism.

Originally posted by Yao

Other than that: You owe your freedom to France, so leave them out of it. France and Germany give Europe it?s political face internationally, the UK is nothing more than the US?s lapdog at the moment.
I wish my country would have a little French temper in politics. They don?t give a shit about what the rest thinks, just like the US.

I hope the Canadian PM speaks French.

I'm not going to argue with you over whether the USA owes their freedom to France yadda yadda yadda. I also won't engage in how France and Germany have tried for over 40 years to turn Europe into a super state controlled by them. I look forward to watching the 'new' europe develop, one which will rightly put France and Germany back in its place.

However I am disgusted by your comments about the UK. Just because they don't tow the line that France and Germany want from Europe in no way makes them a lapdog to anybody. I was never a Blair fan, opposed his leadership, voted against him when he changed the constitution of the British Labour Party, but became a fan of his after meeting him a few times and hearing him speak - not edited highlites but to small groups in the flesh, unscripted and from the heart. (BTW i hold duel nationality and have lived most of my life between Israel and the UK).

Blair is a breed of politician we thought long dead. He holds by his conviction. His whole programme, from Education and the Welfare State to the economy and foriegn policy, is entered into because he believe that what he is doing is right. He's not chasing the votes. He has not been conned by Bush into joining him, he's done it because he believes its the right thing to do.

The world would be abetter place with more politicians like Blair.

**Yao** · November 23, 2004, 09:28:59 PM

Hm, maybe you're right about Blair, but I wasn't attacking him personally. In fact I remember him presenting plans to fight terrorism and the reasons for it's existence and me, myself and I praising him for that.
But I still don't have a clue to what made Blair make the decision to follow Bush into Iraq. I really don't.

The thing about France was actually humorously meant Dave...but may I point out to you the fact that on numerous occasions European posters like me get beaten dead in a discussion with the argument that we should be grateful to the US for helping us in WWI and WWII? How do you think that feels? Should I just keep my mouth shut in the future because of this?
I hope you understand my irritation about this.

Germany and France will have to shape the New Europe as you call it, the UK is going it's own course. They have the economic and political force and influence to do so, although I don't think they should be the decisive factor in the EU politics.
Hopefully the breakthrough they managed to get with Iran is a sign for the future.

I do stand by my other statement: It's all to easy to just blame Arafat: I remeber him and Rabin coming close to a peace treaty until Rabin got shot. So it's not fair to bluntly say Arafat was the cause and that he supported the terrorists. He may very well have been in a terrible predicament: trying to both satisfy Isreal & the international community, and his own people (amongst whom a lot of radicals). I think he was pretty much tied down like that.
He was a big time thief though.
But I don't want to put the blame on Israel either...I admit that of late it has been a lack of willing from the side of the PA to get the peace process back on track. And Sharon has shown his good intentions lately by pulling back the colonizers from Gaza and the West Bank.

**davetlv** · November 23, 2004, 10:13:42 PM

Yao, understand something about me, for me to blame Arafat is going back on almost 18 years of blinding support for the man and his cause. This is the dichotamy of the Left today in Israel.

Prior to Rabin and Oslo it was easy to condemn successive Israeli governments for the occupation of the territories. For nearly all of the 80's and early part of the 90's no Israeli leader would consider sitting down with Arafat. In fact it was a criminal offense to meet with members of the PLO.

Rabin showed courage, he said to Israel, look everyone deserves to be heard and to be given a chance, including Arafat. After Rabins murder we have had four different Prime Minsiters from both left wing and right wing parties. Each one tried to progress the programme with Arafat, each one had a door slammed in his face.

I don't expect the Palestinians to take what ever 'Israel offers', it has to be a fair offer taking into account some of the genuine demands and concerns of the Palestinian people. Why i blame Arafat is instead of coming back with counter proposals (which lets face is how negotiations work) he came back with a call to arms.

With respect to you, your reading of him is all wrong.

As for Europeans getting bashed . . . please, I'm Israeli, you should see some of the comments aimed at me on some sites i frequent!

Once Europe is fully intergrated then we'll see how much sway France and Germany will actually have. Remember that it wasn't just the UK who supported the USA in the war, unless i'm mistaken a sizeable amount of 'new and old' Europe also supported them!

**Yao** · November 24, 2004, 07:44:58 AM

Dave,

I must admit that my speciality is Africa, not the Middle East. So maybe I don't know enough to really have a balanced opinion on the situation there, who knows.
On the other hand it could also be that because I'm not in the middle of it, I can look at the situation a bit cooler than you can. I'm not the one threatening to get bombed everday, all I receive are images and information via the media.

I must agree that Arafat hadn't shown any real attemps from his side to make an effort to get the PP back on track, I really cannot remember any significant news on a move from his side. And I'm pretty sure the news sources over here don't just back the Israeli's, so I don't think that's due to biased media.

I know that that a sizeable amount of 'old'and 'new' Europe backed the USA, and Europe is by far not as united as they would have you believe (only economically).
But given the fact that Germany and France have the most political influence, I expect them to tow the boat in the future, for the moest part at least.
In this, I actually put my hopes on Germany more than France: France is still a little bit too arrogant and easily makes decisions that offend many people, just for the sake of offending them (like the nuclear tests in Mururoa). Germany is the better negociator, and has shown to be able to take a leading role in European politics without scoffing other countries on a full-time basis.

To the France-bashers/haters:

I like France, I've been there, have spoken with the people and admire it especially for continuing to be on the frontline when it comes to Africa. They've not alway made the right decisions, but they went in. Also in Ivory Coast it's the French troops taking the beatings from Gbagbo's army. Well...in return they've destroyed their airforce...so they've beat them back well enough.

France may still have some colonial features in it's politics, certainly given the CFA-franc zone in Africa, which is connected to the French franc. Through the monetary ties France also had political power in those francophone countries, but on the other hand it has softened the blow from the economical crises in the 70's and 80's. And that way it has also been able to influence democratic reforms in many African states.

It's all too big to go into now, but for other readers bashing France this may be a little information as well, it's not just meant for you Dave.
Although I can't remeber you bashing France, so let's just keep it for other readers now. :wink:

**Marimba** · November 24, 2004, 06:14:03 PM

this topic is going madness...but i like it....

**mojorisin007** · November 27, 2004, 12:28:10 PM

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??

The solution to the Middle East is for the U.S to stop suppporting Israel and favouring them over the arabs. Why is that the U.S prefers to be an ally with one nation and alienate 20 + other nations?

**brakada** · November 27, 2004, 01:44:12 PM

Re: What is your solution to the Middle East??