China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

[Shpira]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

capitalism has failed.

[runningman]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

no it hasn't

It hasn't been allowed to work since the bailouts began. Capitalism is based on things failing. When you don't let things fail then you are in a socialism for the rich type format. What we are learning is that socialism doesn't work. You can't bailout bad companies all the time. Citi-AIG-GM-Chrysler they all should have failed. Restructuring would have been a better way to spend the money rather than waste it on toxic assets.

Honestly I hope the US gov't figures out what they are going to do because I fear that the second half of 2009 and all of 2010 are going to be a complete disaster. Worse then what I feared 6 months ago.

[floridaorange]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

^It's not unlikely that 2009-2010 will have more growing pains...what are you doing to be part of the solution is what I find interesting.

-This issue is so multifaceted nearly every response is just a symptom of another issue. Unless someone is ready to post a 100 page dissertation on the subject Miroslav, this is nothing more than a thread for people to post their opinions, in which we are all entitled to. The other alternative to the 100 page essay is to respond with 3 words.

[runningman]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

every issue is multifaceted but as with every issue there is a right side and a wrong side.

[floridaorange]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

Actions can be right or wrong, ideas though are either true or false.

[Miroslav]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

no it hasn't

It hasn't been allowed to work since the bailouts began. Capitalism is based on things failing. When you don't let things fail then you are in a socialism for the rich type format. What we are learning is that socialism doesn't work. You can't bailout bad companies all the time. Citi-AIG-GM-Chrysler they all should have failed. Restructuring would have been a better way to spend the money rather than waste it on toxic assets.

Honestly I hope the US gov't figures out what they are going to do because I fear that the second half of 2009 and all of 2010 are going to be a complete disaster. Worse then what I feared 6 months ago.

You may find this surprising, but I actually really do agree with you in principle: where possible, businesses should be allowed to succeed and fail on their own merits. There are just some extreme cases dealing with certain financial institutions where we know my opinion differs.

But be that as it may...my other broad thought is: as far as the shipping of US jobs overseas, that trend does not mean that capitalism is "broken"; it's actually a natural reflection of capitalism working in a global system. It's just that the consequences are not necessarily equally pleasant for all participants...most notably the US.

[Shpira]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

@ runningman


It seems to me that you guys are over looking one important issue. The people should not serve the system, the system should serve the people. I wonder what the US folks will live on when all jobs are outsourced to save the "American" ideas ...they can't all join the military.

You say that socialism has failed? what Socialism???????????? So what, you believe in total deregulation? Isn't the reason we are in this mess in large part due to the fact that there wasn't enough regulation?

If we lived in a world according to you everyone in the US would be either working for about 2$ per day or starving. Honestly I don't understand what exactly you are propagating here?

I am really curious what exactly you think should be done. All you do is criticize and propose what to me sound like pretty fucking stupid ideas...no offense its just how they sound...maybe if you explain a little what steps the governments should take or lets make it "simpler" steps the US government should take???

[runningman]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

What I am proposing is letting the system work. Let things fail and the good assets will be picked up by good companies. If I had all the answers I would be a miracle worker but I know one thing is that in order for this to fix itself you have to let things fail.

I will respond later in more detail I don't have the time right now.

Pretty fucking stupid ideas right now might be the best way to go considering the "smart'' ideas have landed us here.

WTF is this... This is how you know it is Obama's Plan.. GM to be SOLD TO GOV"T!!!!

http://www.reuters.com/article/mergersNews/idUSN1943363120090519

[ddr]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

What I am proposing is letting the system work. Let things fail and the good assets will be picked up by good companies. If I had all the answers I would be a miracle worker but I know one thing is that in order for this to fix itself you have to let things fail.

I will respond later in more detail I don't have the time right now.

Pretty fucking stupid ideas right now might be the best way to go considering the "smart'' ideas have landed us here.

WTF is this... This is how you know it is Obama's Plan.. GM to be SOLD TO GOV"T!!!!

http://www.reuters.com/article/merge...43363120090519

werent you the one whining and screaming about the government ignoring the auto industry a couple months ago? now once the government tries to help them out you say you wish they let them fail.

make up your fuckin mind dude.

[Shpira]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

Wait a sec... the two articles you put forward have somewhat opposing arguments. If the government buys GM the Chinese won't be able to buy it and it most likely will not be moved to China!

Hooray the US is becoming increasingly socialist! The government is nationalizing the Auto Industry...lol. No this actually makes economical sense investing Government money into the economy to boost it...as long as its done well its a good plan. It makes more sense then creating temporary jobs in the construction and what not + its not pointless. Its a real investment. i was wondering how else he could boost spending...considering the US now days has electricity and roads unlike during FDR. So this is pretty much the only way to pump money in. It makes sense.

Lets just hope that they can bring some good policies to make sure it doesn't go bankrupt as a government owned company which would be really bad...and cost Obama a hell of a lot of points.

[runningman]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

no no no.. I said if you are going to give money away to companies like Citi and AIG that why not give it to the autos that employ tons of people. I wasn't for any of it in the beginning.

Nothing makes sense anymore when it comes to business. Globalization ---- No US only, no not US only.. who fucking knows.

[|Thrax|]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

[this is just a random thought]

we are going to re-engineer the shit out of America..
*we'll make a kickass small eco-green car, employ tons of people in the new green detroit to build it.
maybe it will be like the Mini of the UK.. so popular.
we invest in green fuel, or solar/plug in hybrid.
or bio-fuels..

maybe.. it will be a Chevy? or a FIAT/Chrysler...

in a perfect world, right?
where's my flying car?

[Kinetic]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

Sorry if itīs been posted before :

June 1, 2009

I write this on the morning of the end of the once-mighty General Motors. By high noon, the President of the United States will have made it official: General Motors, as we know it, has been totaled.

As I sit here in GM's birthplace, Flint, Michigan, I am surrounded by friends and family who are filled with anxiety about what will happen to them and to the town. Forty percent of the homes and businesses in the city have been abandoned. Imagine what it would be like if you lived in a city where almost every other house is empty. What would be your state of mind?

It is with sad irony that the company which invented "planned obsolescence" -- the decision to build cars that would fall apart after a few years so that the customer would then have to buy a new one -- has now made itself obsolete. It refused to build automobiles that the public wanted, cars that got great gas mileage, were as safe as they could be, and were exceedingly comfortable to drive. Oh -- and that wouldn't start falling apart after two years. GM stubbornly fought environmental and safety regulations. Its executives arrogantly ignored the "inferior" Japanese and German cars, cars which would become the gold standard for automobile buyers. And it was hell-bent on punishing its unionized workforce, lopping off thousands of workers for no good reason other than to "improve" the short-term bottom line of the corporation. Beginning in the 1980s, when GM was posting record profits, it moved countless jobs to Mexico and elsewhere, thus destroying the lives of tens of thousands of hard-working Americans. The glaring stupidity of this policy was that, when they eliminated the income of so many middle class families, who did they think was going to be able to afford to buy their cars? History will record this blunder in the same way it now writes about the French building the Maginot Line or how the Romans cluelessly poisoned their own water system with lethal lead in its pipes.

So here we are at the deathbed of General Motors. The company's body not yet cold, and I find myself filled with -- dare I say it -- joy. It is not the joy of revenge against a corporation that ruined my hometown and brought misery, divorce, alcoholism, homelessness, physical and mental debilitation, and drug addiction to the people I grew up with. Nor do I, obviously, claim any joy in knowing that 21,000 more GM workers will be told that they, too, are without a job.

But you and I and the rest of America now own a car company! I know, I know -- who on earth wants to run a car company? Who among us wants $50 billion of our tax dollars thrown down the rat hole of still trying to save GM? Let's be clear about this: The only way to save GM is to kill GM. Saving our precious industrial infrastructure, though, is another matter and must be a top priority. If we allow the shutting down and tearing down of our auto plants, we will sorely wish we still had them when we realize that those factories could have built the alternative energy systems we now desperately need. And when we realize that the best way to transport ourselves is on light rail and bullet trains and cleaner buses, how will we do this if we've allowed our industrial capacity and its skilled workforce to disappear?

Thus, as GM is "reorganized" by the federal government and the bankruptcy court, here is the plan I am asking President Obama to implement for the good of the workers, the GM communities, and the nation as a whole. Twenty years ago when I made "Roger & Me," I tried to warn people about what was ahead for General Motors. Had the power structure and the punditocracy listened, maybe much of this could have been avoided. Based on my track record, I request an honest and sincere consideration of the following suggestions:

1. Just as President Roosevelt did after the attack on Pearl Harbor, the President must tell the nation that we are at war and we must immediately convert our auto factories to factories that build mass transit vehicles and alternative energy devices. Within months in Flint in 1942, GM halted all car production and immediately used the assembly lines to build planes, tanks and machine guns. The conversion took no time at all. Everyone pitched in. The fascists were defeated.

We are now in a different kind of war -- a war that we have conducted against the ecosystem and has been conducted by our very own corporate leaders. This current war has two fronts. One is headquartered in Detroit. The products built in the factories of GM, Ford and Chrysler are some of the greatest weapons of mass destruction responsible for global warming and the melting of our polar icecaps. The things we call "cars" may have been fun to drive, but they are like a million daggers into the heart of Mother Nature. To continue to build them would only lead to the ruin of our species and much of the planet.

The other front in this war is being waged by the oil companies against you and me. They are committed to fleecing us whenever they can, and they have been reckless stewards of the finite amount of oil that is located under the surface of the earth. They know they are sucking it bone dry. And like the lumber tycoons of the early 20th century who didn't give a damn about future generations as they tore down every forest they could get their hands on, these oil barons are not telling the public what they know to be true -- that there are only a few more decades of useable oil on this planet. And as the end days of oil approach us, get ready for some very desperate people willing to kill and be killed just to get their hands on a gallon can of gasoline.

President Obama, now that he has taken control of GM, needs to convert the factories to new and needed uses immediately.

2. Don't put another $30 billion into the coffers of GM to build cars. Instead, use that money to keep the current workforce -- and most of those who have been laid off -- employed so that they can build the new modes of 21st century transportation. Let them start the conversion work now.

3. Announce that we will have bullet trains criss-crossing this country in the next five years. Japan is celebrating the 45th anniversary of its first bullet train this year. Now they have dozens of them. Average speed: 165 mph. Average time a train is late: under 30 seconds. They have had these high speed trains for nearly five decades -- and we don't even have one! The fact that the technology already exists for us to go from New York to L.A. in 17 hours by train, and that we haven't used it, is criminal. Let's hire the unemployed to build the new high speed lines all over the country. Chicago to Detroit in less than two hours. Miami to DC in under 7 hours. Denver to Dallas in five and a half. This can be done and done now.

4. Initiate a program to put light rail mass transit lines in all our large and medium-sized cities. Build those trains in the GM factories. And hire local people everywhere to install and run this system.

5. For people in rural areas not served by the train lines, have the GM plants produce energy efficient clean buses.

6. For the time being, have some factories build hybrid or all-electric cars (and batteries). It will take a few years for people to get used to the new ways to transport ourselves, so if we're going to have automobiles, let's have kinder, gentler ones. We can be building these next month (do not believe anyone who tells you it will take years to retool the factories -- that simply isn't true).

7. Transform some of the empty GM factories to facilities that build windmills, solar panels and other means of alternate forms of energy. We need tens of millions of solar panels right now. And there is an eager and skilled workforce who can build them.

8. Provide tax incentives for those who travel by hybrid car or bus or train. Also, credits for those who convert their home to alternative energy.

9. To help pay for this, impose a two-dollar tax on every gallon of gasoline. This will get people to switch to more energy saving cars or to use the new rail lines and rail cars the former autoworkers have built for them.

Well, that's a start. Please, please, please don't save GM so that a smaller version of it will simply do nothing more than build Chevys or Cadillacs. This is not a long-term solution. Don't throw bad money into a company whose tailpipe is malfunctioning, causing a strange odor to fill the car.

100 years ago this year, the founders of General Motors convinced the world to give up their horses and saddles and buggy whips to try a new form of transportation. Now it is time for us to say goodbye to the internal combustion engine. It seemed to serve us well for so long. We enjoyed the car hops at the A&W. We made out in the front -- and the back -- seat. We watched movies on large outdoor screens, went to the races at NASCAR tracks across the country, and saw the Pacific Ocean for the first time through the window down Hwy. 1. And now it's over. It's a new day and a new century. The President -- and the UAW -- must seize this moment and create a big batch of lemonade from this very sour and sad lemon.

Yesterday, the last surviving person from the Titanic disaster passed away. She escaped certain death that night and went on to live another 97 years.

So can we survive our own Titanic in all the Flint Michigans of this country. 60% of GM is ours. I think we can do a better job.

Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com

[i!!ustrious]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

^ the appreciation value of our GM/Chevy pre-71 vintage rods just skyrocketed in worth today (i would postulate)...

hang on to them...

[toasty]

Re: China Made GM cars Sold to US in 2 Years

This bankruptcy may ironically be the best thing that could happen for GM's long-term future. The brand has taken such a beating over many, many years, that it really needed something dramatic and game-changing to happen.

Does this mean I'm going to rush out and buy a GM car at the earliest possible opportunity? Uh, no. I'll say this, though -- in the absence of a major change at GM, I can't ever envision a situation where I would even consider purchasing a GM vehicle, period. Their sales suggest that I am not alone. If this prompts it to make such a radical change to their business model that it no longer resembles GM, though -- and they actually begin producing vehicles I might actually want to drive -- who knows. I at least have an open mind about the possibility that at some distant point in the future, I might consider a GM vehicle, which is more than I could have said a few days ago.