for those who say ALL iraqis don't want us there...

[neoee]

Is that the best you can do?? Showing pics of people who could have been wounded anywhere in the middle east, by anyone, and most likely by terrorist bombings or the like. Nowhere does a single picture show anything that could tie it to Iraq, much less the American military.

You can't be serious? You really need pictures for me to prove the people that have had their homes destroyed, innocent lives lost among other things, don't want us there? If you really deem it necessary, I'll find some that relate it to our presence there. Though, I think it just takes a bit of common sense to realize there are people who do not want us there. Again, I don't see the real purpose to it since no matter how many pro and con pictures that are posted, we will never be able to determine the % of people who actually want us there vs. not. The only real way to determine that would be through some sort of poll and the last one I saw (dated June 04) indicated some 60% of Iraqi's didn't want us there. But to be fair I believe this poll to be bias. But then again.. dead people can't vote.

But consider the following:

Some country doesn't agree with what our leader is doing. Without any authorization by governing bodies, comes in, kidnaps our President, puts him on trial and then continues to go through our country looking for "badguys". Do you think we (Americans) would stand aside and let them continue? Or the more likely scenerio... fight back? The USA wouldn't be if we chose the first option.

Anyways I'll go turn up some pictures for you later tonight.

[evangelion]

Is that the best you can do?? Showing pics of people who could have been wounded anywhere in the middle east, by anyone, and most likely by terrorist bombings or the like. Nowhere does a single picture show anything that could tie it to Iraq, much less the American military.

You can't be serious? You really need pictures for me to prove the people that have had their homes destroyed, innocent lives lost among other things, don't want us there? If you really deem it necessary, I'll find some that relate it to our presence there. Though, I think it just takes a bit of common sense to realize there are people who do not want us there. Again, I don't see the real purpose to it since no matter how many pro and con pictures that are posted, we will never be able to determine the % of people who actually want us there vs. not. The only real way to determine that would be through some sort of poll and the last one I saw (dated June 04) indicated some 60% of Iraqi's didn't want us there. But to be fair I believe this poll to be bias. But then again.. dead people can't vote.

But consider the following:

Some country doesn't agree with what our leader is doing. Without any authorization by governing bodies, comes in, kidnaps our President, puts him on trial and then continues to go through our country looking for "badguys". Do you think we (Americans) would stand aside and let them continue? Or the more likely scenerio... fight back? The USA wouldn't be if we chose the first option.

Anyways I'll go turn up some pictures for you later tonight.

I don't really think any comparisons can really be drawn between our 2 country's situations. Our president has never used chemical weapons on us or kidnapped, tortured and killed our family members for dissenting against his evil rule. Average citizens in this country don't carry AK-47s and RPGs around out in the street. If I lived under these conditions and another country came in to try and stop it, name one reason why I would try to fight against them.

[runningman]

ahh neooee it may be 60 % now because we are still on there mother land and they don't like that but they were dancing in the streets when the USA was coming to take down saddam.. I saw those pics.. sometimes people don''t know whats best for themselves and it takes another country to come in and help it out.. In 5-7 years you to will see the progress of Iraq..

[Yao]

Re: for those who say ALL iraqis don't want us there...

sometimes people don''t know whats best for themselves and it takes another country to come in and help it out

Now who the fuck are we to tell people what's good for them? I still don't understand how you can say this with a straight face, assuming the Iraqi people are not capable of determining for themselves what's good for them and what not.
Of course they now what's good for them, having it is second. And maybe they thought Saddam was bad, but being liberated by the Devil is even worse, get wat I'm saying? Don't just assume they think like us, Muslims and in this case the Iraqi's have a totally different view on right/wrong than we do. Maybe if Arabia was in the coalition this war would have had support even in the Arabian countries...but I think that would've been impossble.

Whatever argument you may have to be in favour of the war, this is one of the least acceptable to many people, simply because it (even though you may not mean it like that) implies a huge amount of arrogance towards non-Western people in general.

Search for the solution from within their culture, not outside. Born and fed from within it will have so much more legitimacy among the people it affects...

[runningman]

oh it is def. the least acceptable.. i agree.. i am not saying this like "I am smarter then them".. But how could you tell the enemy from a friend when the person you thought was your friend was the person killing you(saddam).. how can they trust anyone?? But these car bombs aren't the answer because the USA will leave soon (and go fight Iran) and all they are doing is killing there own people..

[Yao]

They are, sadly.

But the thing is, they didn't see Saddam as their friend you know. That they do not support the US in 'liberating' them has nothing to do with them actually liking Saddam, no way. But maybe they thought Saddam was bad, but the thought of being helped by the devil (because since the Fatwa from Iran that is how most devout Muslims think about the US) was just freakin' unbearable...You just choose bad over worse, that's all.

And: If Bush decides to attack Iran, let's organise a cage fight and let the outcome of that be decisive. You and me, aight? I'll be Iran, you be the US.
(Just a crazy though sneakin' into my mind )

[runningman]

no problem.. i almost want them to go to war so we do this case fight..whether they saddam as a friend or not he was there leader and they weren't aloud to talk bad about him or they would be killed.. that is a shittly system if you ask me.

[neoee]

As promised:










Just a picture I found interesting:

[runningman]

.. i can do a better air brush job then that.. good one.. :wink:

[neoee]

.. i can do a better air brush job then that.. good one.. :wink:

I did a search regarding that picture and found your right:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/carrier.asp

Anyways care to comment on the other pictures?

[thesightless]

we arent fighting a religion, we are fighting people who oppose the fact that everyone should have a voice in their own future. unfortunetly some of these people have grouped it all together. we arent hunting muslims in america, UK, germany, spain, etc. we are actually using the military to attempt to bring about self governence. they are the ones bombing thier own people to prevent a voice from all. either way its all fucked up. but hope can only prevail if everyone wants it to. :?

[thesightless]

also, if you see a tank coming, and dont plan on attacking it, you might want to run away if your neighbor is planning on attaching it. nothing has 100% accuracy.

[evangelion]

Re: for those who say ALL iraqis don't want us there...

^^^^ Those pictures are so ridiculous it almost isn't funny.

"Out, out America. Let's live peace fully." How long would it have taken for that entire crowd of people to be mowed down by AKs if they tried to have that same gathering when Saddam was still in power. How soon they forget.

"No Bush, No Saddam." Funny, but isn't Bush the reason there is no Saddam?? Ungrateful fucks. We roll in and do what they couldn't in what, 40 years...and as soon as they have the freedom to gather in public without fearing for there lives all of a sudden it's "Thanks, but no thanks...get the fuck out."

I really could care less about what happens to Iraq now that Saddam is out of power. I wish we would pull out and let them fend for themselves and see how many public demonstrations and "Save our heritage" rallies they have with all of the Saddam loyalist running the show. But I'm sure they would blame us for that too.

Also I noticed I didn't see any dead kids and charred bodies...just a bunch of people getting a taste of freedom they have never had and using it to express their hatred for America. Even though America is the reason they have that freedom. Right...and our soldiers are dying for these fucks??

[neoee]

Regardless of whether or not the pictures are a bit ironical (since now they have the ability to voice their opinions), the fact remains that we are not wanted there by some, and from some of the polls I was running across in search of the pictures, it looks like by the majority.

As Yao stated, they may not like Saddam but they may consider him less evil than the us.

You must try to view the situation from the prospective of someone with their upbringing. Its easy to forget but some cultures still believe things like having their picture taken is having their soul taken or that having sex with a virgin will cure STD's... including AIDS.

Its only cut and dry if we leave their beliefs out.

I wish we would pull out and let them fend for themselves and see how many public demonstrations and "Save our heritage" rallies they have with all of the Saddam loyalist running the show. But I'm sure they would blame us for that too.

Even though I'm opposed to the war in general, I think we have to finish what we started for not only the future of Iraq but the credibility of the US.

[Yao]

That is true, and also that runningman said that it's ironical that now they have the freedom to voice their opinion they're boo-ing off the ones that gave it to them.

At this stage I'm beginning accept te fact that it is no use anymore to be actively against the war: it is there, still being fought and Iraq doesn't benefit from my complaints. Better to look how to solve this mess and make it emerge from it whole and new, not nessecarily 'better' because it'll have a democracy. And Europe/the UN must help with that, they've got enough money and maybe it's time they start spending it purposefully.

But I won't forget, and in future world politics the US will have to make amends to regain credibility, and not just for me.