Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

[floridaorange]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

This should probably go in a different thread, but since we're talking about economics now...

Here's a great article and time line of events regarding Blackstone. I urge anyone who understands investing to read it...I came across it doing some research on Blackstone's monetization of their west cost office portfolio in 2007 ...I realized the timing was too good early last year.


(Schwarzman is the CEO/Pres of Blackstone) January 28, 2009

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aJJx48OeDvX0&refer=home

While Schwarzman masterfully timed the top of the market in 2007, buying companies at the bottom will prove tricky. Blackstone has never faced a recession like today’s. Unlike the eight-month U.S. contraction in 2001, which was caused by the bursting of the dot-com bubble, the current downturn is global -- encompassing banking, manufacturing, retailing and housing -- and longer lasting.

[etincelles]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

....

[Miroslav]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

good opinion article, summarizes how I feel about this:

http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2009/0721_health_reform_gale.aspx

Choosing to finance health care reform by taxing the rich is bad economic policy, bad health policy, bad budget policy and poor leadership.

It is bad economic policy because, coupled with the scheduled expiration of the Bush tax cuts, it would raise marginal tax rates by 10 percentage points for high-income households. While I object to the general hue and cry that occurs anytime anyone discusses any potential tax increase for the rich, it is nevertheless quite fair to say that a 10 percentage point increase in taxation on the return to labor and capital income is a lot and shouldn’t be the first choice. (But please spare me the argument that every hike in the top tax rate would kill the small business sector.)

It is bad health policy because we need to fix the structural problems in health care in order to cut costs and be able to expand coverage. One of the biggest structural problems is the non-taxation of employer-provided health care. Fixing that – converting it to a refundable fixed credit, which was originally suggested by my colleague Jason Furman, now deputy director of the National Economic Council, and then by John McCain during the campaign last year – would not only raise a lot of money, it would improve incentives for health care. Taxing the rich does not address this issue at all – it may raise the same amount of revenue but it does not address the incentive problem that arises from non-taxation of employer-provided health care.

It is bad budget policy because we are using up one of our options on the revenue side -- not to cut the deficit -- but to finance new spending. We need to save our powder for deficit reduction activities: use the change in tax treatment of employer-sponsored health care to finance health care and use general revenue increases to finance general deficit reductions.

It is poor leadership because it furthers the myth that we can solve our fiscal problems by taxing “other” people or with “gimmick” taxes. It has been said many times already and will be said many times again: we are going to need broad based tax increases and spending cuts to bring the fiscal house into order, and the more politicians continue to act as if we can just foist the financing on a small group (be it rich people or foreign corporations or obese people or people who drink soda, etc.), the worse are our prospects for solving the problems.

If we want to seriously reform the health care system, we need our politicians to get serious with some sensible policies.

[Lorn]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

One of the biggest structural problems is the non-taxation of employer-provided health care. Fixing that – converting it to a refundable fixed credit,

????

Please explain in layman terms...thank you.

[Miroslav]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

????

Please explain in layman terms...thank you.

A lot of health care spending tied to your employer comes with tax exempt status. That is, in essence, a huge handout from Uncle Sam - in fact, I understand that it is one of the largest, if not the largest subsidies out there. Opponents of this generally argue at three things: (1) this subsidy is poorly targeted, because it most benefits the wealthy who are the one who least need it; (2) it provides poor incentives for people to be the smartest consumers they could in their own health care; (3) it impedes flow in the labor market because people fear losing their great, subsidized coverage through their employer; and (4) it costs us a hell of a lot in foregone government revenue, which matters when you're talking about how to finance stuff.

Basically, it's one key area that some economists say we should focus in order to get at structural problems with health care rather than just adding new changes on top of the old problems and taking incremental dollars out of peoples' pockets.

It also underscores that this stuff is complicated as hell - I'm sure no expert on it - and I'd guess that most Americans who are out there protesting it don't even have very good arguments for WHY they oppose it...other than to say it's "Socialism".

[Lorn]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

I'm still not following. Are you saying that an employer sponsored health care plan not being taxed as income is therefore considered a subsidy?

[Miroslav]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

^^ of course. What's the difference between the government foregoing tax vs. collecting the tax as they otherwise would normally be entitled to do and then just handing you a big check every year? Putting issues like interest aside for this example, It's the same net cash outflow from the government's pocket either way - in other words, a subsidy.

[floridaorange]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

^I might add that just because employers get some fica/futa tax savings, doesnt mean it's affordable for them to offer involuntary benefits. It's expensive if not unaffordable for both parties, employer and employee.

[Lorn]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

^^ of course. What's the difference between the government foregoing tax vs. collecting the tax as they otherwise would normally be entitled to do and then just handing you a big check every year? Putting issues like interest aside for this example, It's the same net cash outflow from the government's pocket either way - in other words, a subsidy.

So then this brookings guy is suggesting add employer funded healthcare to income. Tax it then give it back as a credit?

Ugh.

^I might add that just because employers get some fica/futa tax savings, doesnt mean it's affordable for them to offer involuntary benefits. It's expensive if not unaffordable for both parties, employer and employee.

You got that right.

[Miroslav]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

So then this brookings guy is suggesting add employer funded healthcare to income. Tax it then give it back as a credit?

Ugh.

Yeah, something like that... The argument is that when it's given to you as a credit, you now have an incentive to try to manage your health care as best as you can since you get to keep whatever you don't use - thus putting your skin in the game to help keep costs from growing. Also, when you get it it's yours and isn't tied to your employer...or the government, for that matter. So you have more flexibility to take it with you and do what you want with it. This is the core of what John McCain was proposing when he campaigned for President.

Personally, I'm split on this one...I probably should have said that this is the one point in the guy's article where I'm not so closely aligned with him. I'd be amenable to a different structure, but I definitely don't like the way Obama is proposing to finance his plan right now...it points to ominous signs about the long term effectiveness of his plan imo.

[Miroslav]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/08/10/health.care.questions/index.html

And so it supposedly continues... I wonder how many of these people who are turning these debates into shouting matches actually even understand the health care system and how this plan would actually work - or if they just ate up some soundbite offered to them somewhere from the media.

Personally, I think that anyone who comes to these things and is disruptive to the point of impeding actual productive dialogue should just be thrown out on their ass. You can have your freedom of speech - outside - while the rest of us actually try to put our heads together and take a rational approach to figuring out what to do.

[runningman]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

Miro I think what you are seeing is the frustration of the American people. Think about it. They voted a Democrat House and Senate when Bush was in power because the Dems promised to get out of Iraq. They didn't deliver. Then everyone wanted Bush out of office and Obama promised the world. He hasn't delivered. They don't need to see the bill because the past shows that no matter what it is, the American people feel it will screw them. It is like being a sales rep. Some people think I am a crook and selling a scam (When i sell cable, home phone, internet).

They are pissed and feel that the gov't will fuck them because history says they will. Everyone also knows that your gov't is the most corrupt and to put health care in their hands doesn't feel like a safe bet.

To be honeset I am watching the news right now and they are saying that there is confusion about the facts. If the dems can't sell the plan and give the facts straight up then it is their fault. It is a hard sell that you will give them better health care at cheaper prices. Everyone knows that is a lie.

They should also stop calling people Nazi's and turn the 1000 pages into a powerpoint or simple youtube video explaining it to the T. Simple answers

How it will affect them? In plain english.

Pros/Cons?

Wait times in hospitals? Tell the truth it. Wait times will go up so don't lie about it.

Why is it 1000 pages? Everyone knows that sounds porked up(for people who won't read it and go against it). I'm not for 10 pages either but 1000 seems like a lot considering the law of the entire land was founded on way less.

Everyone should receive an email of the powerpoint or create a facebook account that you have on the news every night with the powerpoint attached. Have different attachments

How it will affect you:

1. Seniors 65+
2. Middle Aged 35-64
3. Ages 20-34
4. Kids

And break it the fuck down in plain english. Don't just have a propaganda war.

To say I want the people that caused this to get out of the way when your ratings are 50% means you just pissed off 50% of americans. Not very bi partisan at all. The smooth talker Obama has been messing up lately.

[srbbnd]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

People fear change I'm tired of these old fucks.

[runningman]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

Liberal media continues racist talk. Says that Socialist is a code word for the N-word. Obama pushing race again. This race call is getting out of hand.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3dFh8YYd70[/YOUTUBE]

[toasty]

Re: Town Halls Turn into Town Mess

People fear change I'm tired of these old fucks.

Apropos of your post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cenk-uygur/the-last-gasp-of-the-angr_b_255273.html