you know what's astonishing?

[floridaorange]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^If that were a fact, he wouldn't have received the insurance money


Silverstein's Quote:

"I remember getting a call from the Fire Department commander, telling me they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, you know, 'We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is just pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, he was talking to the fire commander

-Fact which is undisputed by either side, both are not in the demolition business

Silverstein's spokesperson, Mr. McQuillan, later clarified:

"In the afternoon of September 11, Mr. Silverstein spoke to the Fire Department Commander on site at Seven World Trade Center. The Commander told Mr. Silverstein that there were several firefighters in the building working to contain the fires. Mr. Silverstein expressed his view that the most important thing was to protect the safety of those firefighters, including, if necessary, to have them withdraw from the building."

He could be lying, right? But here is the corroborating evidence...

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski

[runningman]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

To pull a building is to not pull firefighters. It has never been used. To pull it means to "pull" the main beams out to demolish a building.

He would have said "to get the fireman" out because it also makes him look better if he said it that way.

I can't stress this enough "pulling" has never been used as firemen to get out of a building. That is a controlled demo term.

Also Florida sometimes it's who you know not about what you did? Especially in your country.

[Shpira]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^So what is your proposed reason as to why they did fall?

I don't have a proposal. I just believe that an acceptable explanation was never given. So a public investigation should be made an all relevant people should be interviewed under oath with full public transparency. This is the main point. Why was this never done? Do the the victims do not deserve this?
The official story stinks and thats as far as I am sure...who did it and why is beside the point.

[floridaorange]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^Fair enough man.

Also Florida sometimes it's who you know not about what you did? Especially in your country.

referring to?

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^I'm actually not interested in debating that part of the movie, mostly the part about the US government having some role in 9/11 and the reason for why internationals would believe such bs.

Florida you say that you are interested in the part about US government having some role in 9/11. I'm interested in what you think about Bush's claim about seeing the first plane on TV. I'm not saying its an admission of guilt. I'm just interested in peoples opinion.

Check out 5 min's 19 seconds

[YOUTUBE]ALtNYBX7OmM[/YOUTUBE]

[floridaorange]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I personally know some of the people he worked with in Florida so believe me when I say, Bush was dumb enough or absent-minded enough to say what he said incorrectly on television, in a townhall in Orlando, 7 weeks after 9/11. I know that's hard to fathom, but it's most likely the truth of the matter.

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I personally know some of the people he worked with in Florida so believe me when I say, Bush was dumb enough or absent-minded enough to say what he said incorrectly on television, in a townhall in Orlando, 7 weeks after 9/11. I know that's hard to fathom, but it's most likely the truth of the matter.

I find it strange that he would watch a plane go into the twin towers comment that he thought it was due to a terrible pilot then carry on about his day. I think I would a have canceled all my engagements that day even if I thought it was an accident. Apparently he was asked about it a few weeks later and still maintains he saw the first plane hit the tower on TV before entering the classroom.

Do you think it was OK that Bush & Cheney where only interviewed on 9/11 together, not on oath, with no transcript and only a very select few people from the 9/11 committee present.

[yesme]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

it was a set-up, i researched it for thousands of hours.

shit is okey as hell.

[runningman]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

I mean what do people have to gain for asing for a new investigation but the truth? Anybody that says controlled demo is immedietly called a conspiracy theorist. I don't see why we would want that ridicule unless we believed in having a new investigation.

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

^
"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski

Didn't the recent investigation into the collapse of building 7 conclude that no one could of predicted that building 7 could of collapsed.

Which is already been discussed in this thread I think

http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59030&highlight=building

[Miroslav]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

got really busy at work... haven't had time yet to look at the stuff that chunky posted, but I will when I have time.

but I have to say that so far, everything in this thread has only increased my belief that the conspiracy theory arguments don't hold up very well and involve a lot of dubious conjecture. There are still some things that I have to look at, though.

Stuff that I think is reasonably safe to say is false/missing the point:
Molten Steel while building was standing - highly unsubstantiated, impossible to determine from grainy Youtube videos, logically highly unlikely since building was still standing at time.

Molten Steel after building fell - possible and substantiated in isolated places; scientific evidence suggests this can occur without any sort of a bomb. However, videos used to "substantiate" this by the conspiracy theorists include still shots of completely unrelated events (i.e., the metalworkers clearing debris)

Free Fall speed - highly unsubstantiated, evidence of building fall times and video of debris falling faster than building makes this highly unlikely; also analysis of seismic readings and scientific calculations suggest estimates that are clearly above free fall imes.

Planes couldn't bring buildings down - THEY DIDN'T, IT WAS THE FIRES THAT DID; no one argues that the impact of the planes brought the buildings down. Best scientific explanation is that the uncontrolled fires brough the buildings down when they sufficiently weakened the steel (not melted it) to the point where it couldn't hold the loads any longer.

No plane ever hitting Pentagon - Seems unlikely, despite lack of clear video; don't know why one wasn't taken or released, but there were very many independent eyewitnesses who saw the plane coming in from many different vantage points. It would take a lot for me to think they were all lying.

Stuff I still have to look into:
People saying they heard things/bombs/etc.
Bush saying contradictory/confusing things -
Building 7 controlled demolition

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Molten Steel while building was standing - highly unsubstantiated, impossible to determine from grainy Youtube videos, logically highly unlikely since building was still standing at time.

The videos mite be hard to determine on grainy youtube footage but the original footage was taken from news channels that where broadcasting as the events occurred. I'm guessing the experts who made the conclusion didn't make their conclusion by looking at grainy Youtube videos and used the clearer footage from the news channels broadcasting the events. There was dispute over the time building 7 collapsed. Debunkers where saying the footage had been sped up. However most of the conspiracy theorist where actually telling people to get the official CNN video footage and check from for them self.

When Steven Jones was interviewed by CNN they refused to broadcast the footage of the collapse during his interview. I can dig out the footage if anyone wants to see it!

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Planes couldn't bring buildings down - THEY DIDN'T, IT WAS THE FIRES THAT DID; no one argues that the impact of the planes brought the buildings down. Best scientific explanation is that the uncontrolled fires brough the buildings down when they sufficiently weakened the steel (not melted it) to the point where it couldn't hold the loads any longer.

But the NIST experts who came to this conclusion have failed to be able to even remotely recreate this scenario in the furnaces when they did the trials

[Miroslav]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

The videos mite be hard to determine on grainy youtube footage but the original footage was taken from news channels that where broadcasting as the events occurred. I'm guessing the experts who made the conclusion didn't make their conclusion by looking at grainy Youtube videos and used the clearer footage from the news channels broadcasting the events. There was dispute over the time building 7 collapsed. Debunkers where saying the footage had been sped up. However most of the conspiracy theorist where actually telling people to get the official CNN video footage and check from for them self.

When Steven Jones was interviewed by CNN they refused to broadcast the footage of the collapse during his interview. I can dig out the footage if anyone wants to see it!

Then please show me the evidence that experts used to determine that there was molten steel pouring out of the sides of the building while it was still standing. Also the names of the experts who made that determination. If it is credible and reasonably conclusive, then I will believe it.

I'm already in agreement that there were cases of molten steel discovered later in the wreckage; however, in those cases I'm still in disagreement about the cause.

[PROG]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

y was it pulled? cause it was insured?


see the angle of the steel where it's cut slanted? that only happens with demolition. don't say its photoshoped..take it to any expert. ill put money on it.