you know what's astonishing?

[toasty]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

What your asking for is for people to speculate on something they cannot answer.

Why is it that you are unwilling to speculate on this point, but have no problem speculating on so many other things for this theory? The entire thing is based upon conjecture and speculation FFS...

Let's do it this way, without asking you to tell me specifically what became of Flight 77: if it is your opinion that Flight 77 did NOT hit the Pentagon, then you should surely agree that the flight is not otherwise publicly accounted for. Soooooo, that means that one of the following must have happened, as I understand it:

1. Flight 77 vanished, Bermuda Triangle style
2. Flight 77 happened to crash in an unknown location on the same day as the largest terrorist attack on US soil.
3. Flight 77 was shot down by the US military, in secret, so that the military could instead shoot a missile into the Pentagon.
4. Flight 77 was secretly taken somewhere else by the US government, and it and its occupants are hanging out somewhere, where they will live the rest of their lives in secret to help perpetuate this cover-up.

If I'm missing an option, please let me know.

#1 relies upon the supernatural.
#2 is completely unlikely and would be an incredible bit of luck for the perpetrators of this grand conspiracy.
#3 is unnecessary -- if you're going to attack the Pentagon and want to make it look like a plane hit it, and you need to destroy the plane to cover up the fact that the plane didn't hit it, why not just fly the plane into the building? Reminds me of when, as a kid, I would pretend to vacuum the floor so it would leave vacuum tracks and make it look like I vacuumed the floor, when it would have been just as easy to just vacuum the damn floor.
#4 is where I imagine most conspiracy theorists come down, but for me, it's just madness.

For me, in the absence of a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to Flight 77, the foundation of any further discussion is so flimsy as to be unworthy of serious discussion.

[floridaorange]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

http://911review.org/Wiki/snopespentagonrumor.html

Care to debunk this book?

Dunbar, D. and B. Reagan. Debunking 9/11 myths. 2006. New York: Hearst Books.

[yesme]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Care to debunk this book?

Dunbar, D. and B. Reagan. Debunking 9/11 myths. 2006. New York: Hearst Books.

if you have some online source for it, i wont be buying it, reading it and debunking it that way.

[Miroslav]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Why is it that you are unwilling to speculate on this point, but have no problem speculating on so many other things for this theory? The entire thing is based upon conjecture and speculation FFS...

Let's do it this way, without asking you to tell me specifically what became of Flight 77: if it is your opinion that Flight 77 did NOT hit the Pentagon, then you should surely agree that the flight is not otherwise publicly accounted for. Soooooo, that means that one of the following must have happened, as I understand it:

1. Flight 77 vanished, Bermuda Triangle style
2. Flight 77 happened to crash in an unknown location on the same day as the largest terrorist attack on US soil.
3. Flight 77 was shot down by the US military, in secret, so that the military could instead shoot a missile into the Pentagon.
4. Flight 77 was secretly taken somewhere else by the US government, and it and its occupants are hanging out somewhere, where they will live the rest of their lives in secret to help perpetuate this cover-up.

If I'm missing an option, please let me know.

#1 relies upon the supernatural.
#2 is completely unlikely and would be an incredible bit of luck for the perpetrators of this grand conspiracy.
#3 is unnecessary -- if you're going to attack the Pentagon and want to make it look like a plane hit it, and you need to destroy the plane to cover up the fact that the plane didn't hit it, why not just fly the plane into the building? Reminds me of when, as a kid, I would pretend to vacuum the floor so it would leave vacuum tracks and make it look like I vacuumed the floor, when it would have been just as easy to just vacuum the damn floor.
#4 is where I imagine most conspiracy theorists come down, but for me, it's just madness.

For me, in the absence of a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to Flight 77, the foundation of any further discussion is so flimsy as to be unworthy of serious discussion.

EXACTLY. Great post.

It's amusing to see people get worked up about their supposed expertise in every form of propaganda, covert ops, zulu mind tricks, etc...and completely disregard basic common sense along the way.

yesme, runningman...until you guys come up with a damn good explanation for this, based on sound logic and strong evidence, I'm inclined to disregard everything you say.

[Miroslav]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Maybe I'm wrong here but if the engine is where the aircraft burns the fuel surely it has to be able to withstand the heat of the fuel burning

your correct sir, min operating temp for those engines is 650oC. for hours.

Oh please...really? Just how many large jet crashes at top speed into the sides of a large, reinforced buildings followed by explosions do YOU know of that keep the engines intact?

Just because the insides of a jet engine are designed to burn fuel at high temperatures does not mean that it can simply survive such a high-speed impact, explosion, and fire. A few google searches will show you plenty of examples of high-impact planes crashes and explosions that result in pretty small debris and certainly nothing even resembling a whole jet engine. There are of course crashes where parts of the plane do stay intact, but there are also obviously many different variables affecting an accident.

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Care to debunk this book?

Dunbar, D. and B. Reagan. Debunking 9/11 myths. 2006. New York: Hearst Books.

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away. I work with people who read the da vinci code and believe it must be real.

[chunky]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

1. Flight 77 vanished, Bermuda Triangle style
2. Flight 77 happened to crash in an unknown location on the same day as the largest terrorist attack on US soil.
3. Flight 77 was shot down by the US military, in secret, so that the military could instead shoot a missile into the Pentagon.
4. Flight 77 was secretly taken somewhere else by the US government, and it and its occupants are hanging out somewhere, where they will live the rest of their lives in secret to help perpetuate this cover-up.

Maybe there where only 3 planes with and the passengers of two of the planes where on the same plane. Did any of the planes take off from the same airport at about the same time.

I'm not saying I believe this or trying to start any rumours.

[yesme]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Just because the insides of a jet engine are designed to burn fuel at high temperatures does not mean that it can simply survive such a high-speed impact, explosion, and fire.

do you know what a black box is sir?

do you know what it is designed to do?

do you understand that the black box and the engines are made out of the same metal?

do you understand how stupid you sound now?

7 of 8 black boxes were not found for all plane crashes. Black boxes that record all flight data are stored in heavy titanium that can withstand almost all of the toughest physical damage.
Many airplane parts are made of Titanium that has a melting point of 1,688oC. And high grade jet fuel burns at a maximum of 1,000oC. Many engine parts should be visible even after the crash event.

a b-36 engine that hit a side of a mountin(not as hard as a building i know...lol)
















show me something that says engines are NOT recovered in 95% of crashes, and i might believe you.

[yesme]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Why is it that you are unwilling to speculate on this point, but have no problem speculating on so many other things for this theory? The entire thing is based upon conjecture and speculation FFS...

Let's do it this way, without asking you to tell me specifically what became of Flight 77: if it is your opinion that Flight 77 did NOT hit the Pentagon, then you should surely agree that the flight is not otherwise publicly accounted for. Soooooo, that means that one of the following must have happened, as I understand it:

1. Flight 77 vanished, Bermuda Triangle style
2. Flight 77 happened to crash in an unknown location on the same day as the largest terrorist attack on US soil.
3. Flight 77 was shot down by the US military, in secret, so that the military could instead shoot a missile into the Pentagon.
4. Flight 77 was secretly taken somewhere else by the US government, and it and its occupants are hanging out somewhere, where they will live the rest of their lives in secret to help perpetuate this cover-up.

If I'm missing an option, please let me know.

#1 relies upon the supernatural.
#2 is completely unlikely and would be an incredible bit of luck for the perpetrators of this grand conspiracy.
#3 is unnecessary -- if you're going to attack the Pentagon and want to make it look like a plane hit it, and you need to destroy the plane to cover up the fact that the plane didn't hit it, why not just fly the plane into the building? Reminds me of when, as a kid, I would pretend to vacuum the floor so it would leave vacuum tracks and make it look like I vacuumed the floor, when it would have been just as easy to just vacuum the damn floor.
#4 is where I imagine most conspiracy theorists come down, but for me, it's just madness.

For me, in the absence of a satisfactory explanation as to what happened to Flight 77, the foundation of any further discussion is so flimsy as to be unworthy of serious discussion.

number 4, except they are all dead.

[runningman]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

why is 3 so hard to believe. Do you actually think that your gov't would come out in the open ans say "tragedy today we had to shoot one of our planes down killing hundreds on board.."

Plus Rumsfeld said they shot it down.

[Miroslav]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

do you know what a black box is sir?

do you know what it is designed to do?

do you understand that the black box and the engines are made out of the same metal?

do you understand how stupid you sound now?

show me something that says engines are NOT recovered in 95% of crashes, and i might believe you.

yesme, the fact that engines are recovered in 95% of crashes doesn't mean shit here. The average statistics may not be representative of the individual case. Statistics also say correctly that the majority of people survive airplane crashes, and that obviously does not apply in every case.

Have you ever considered that there can be a pretty big difference in the results of a crash where pilots are trying to avoid the crash as much as possible vs. one where the pilots are trying to make the crash as destructive as possible?

In many typical cases, jets may be traveling at slower speeds (most accidents occur at takeoff or landing) and may attempt to impact in safer ways if control is at all possible - shallower angles, into safer areas, etc. Not that many are going at maximum power into large buildings. Do you understand the difference in kinetic energy that may exist in these two different kinds of scenarios?

So yesme, riddle me this, and I might believe you: where were the engines of Flight 93? Where are the big debris pieces there? The wings? The fuselage? etc. They found what, the fan from one of the engines in a basin downhill from the crash site? Did the government come in and secretly haul them off in the middle of the night?

There are other examples of airliner crashes that produced very small debris fields. I'm not saying that most do, but if there is even one other example out there, then that obviously tell you that it is possible to not have a mostly intact jet/aircraft under certain circumstances of crash.

Maybe there where only 3 planes with and the passengers of two of the planes where on the same plane. Did any of the planes take off from the same airport at about the same time.

I'm not saying I believe this or trying to start any rumours.

Seriously?

number 4, except they are all dead.

You claim to be such an evidence-driven expert on everything, and this is what you come up with?

Show me your evidence and reasoning for this far-reaching accusation, and maybe I'll take you seriously.

Otherwise, I don't think anything you say is credible if you actually really believe unsubstantiated fantasies like this.

[toasty]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

number 4, except they are all dead.

OK then, care to connect the dots on this using, you know, facts rather than speculation and conjecture?

why is 3 so hard to believe. Do you actually think that your gov't would come out in the open ans say "tragedy today we had to shoot one of our planes down killing hundreds on board.."

Well, it is undisputed that Cheney did give the order to shoot down passenger planes on 9/11, so the literal answer to your question would be "yes." Of course, in this case, the shooting down of a plane wouldn't be to save American lives it would have been to disguise the fact that they were actually shooting a missile into the Pentagon instead, which they would then sell as if Flight 77 hit it, so I guess you raise a good point?

Plus Rumsfeld said they shot it down.

I'm probably going to regret this, but I've got to see your source on this. I think Don Rumsfeld ought to be serving time right now, for a host of other reasons, but I'm not aware of him ever saying that we shot down Flight 77.

[runningman]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

Miro look at a couple of the major facts..

Rumsfeld said they shot it down
Silverstein said to "pull it"
Bush Lied about where he was when the planes hit

What proof are you looking for exactly?

Here Toasty

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3V9MD15qs5s[/YOUTUBE]

We agree on one thing forsure that Rumsfeld should be in jail

[toasty]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

That's hardly the sort of unequivocal statement that I would put a lot of faith in -- kinda sounds like a short-hand slip of the tongue -- but even if he did errantly disclose that a plane was shot down over Pennsylvania, he'd be talking about Flight 93, not Flight 77. Moreover, he said that terrorists shot down the plane, not that we shot it down. Still not a good explanation for what happened to flight 77.

[Miroslav]

Re: you know what's astonishing?

why is 3 so hard to believe. Do you actually think that your gov't would come out in the open ans say "tragedy today we had to shoot one of our planes down killing hundreds on board.."

Plus Rumsfeld said they shot it down.

Way to completely contradict your own point. "The government wouldn't come out and say it...but they came out and said it."

And here is why #3 is hard to believe: Because there is NO EVIDENCE. NONE.

Do you believe any anti-government fantasy story that is told to you with no supporting evidence?

What proof are you looking for exactly?

I'm looking for eyewitnesses who saw something OTHER THAN a large jet heading for the Pentagon.

I'm looking for direct evidence of a plot and all these things you guys are claiming - not these circumstantial questionings of one hole, claims about some nutty-ass cab driver, out-of-context snippets from Rumsfeld speeches.

I'm looking for a logical story as to why the government would engage in something this ridiculously complicated - running 757s into the WTC but then deciding to cover it up at the Pentagon, etc.

And you should be, too. Even if the government version is flawed, the alternatives you guys are coming up with are even less substantiated by facts and evidence.