Tweet
Re: you know what's astonishing?
These seem to be pretty damn comprehensive to me.
These seem to be pretty damn comprehensive to me.
-
It was fun while it lasted...
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
^was 9/11 non unprecedented in it's entirety?
It was fun while it lasted...Comment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
They said that before, only the BBC managed to predict a new kind of progressive collapse
[YOUTUBE]6mxFRigYD3s[/YOUTUBE]
This was mentioned in this thread before
Originally posted by res0nat0r
Comment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
Actually, I did answer the question, frontally and directly:
Regardless, I do think you're missing my broader point, which is that there are lots of different types of evidence and even in criminal proceedings, where the standard of proof is extremely high, it is not necessary to check off every single bit of evidence that could potentially exist to get a conviction.
Example:
Suppose Person A is accused of shooting and killing Person B at a crowded shopping mall. It is alleged that he used a .357 Magnum and shot him 4 times. Four .357 shells are found at the scene, about a dozen people testify that they saw Person A shoot Person B, and a .357 Magnum is found in A's possession. For whatever reason, however, the security cameras did not pick up the incident.
Do you discard the overwhelming evidence of A's guilt just because there is no video of the event occurring? If you're A's lawyer, you probably argue that the jury should, but I just don't think that's persuasive because there's so much other corroborating evidence. If there were actually 30 people in a position to see the shooting, does the fact that only 12 testified mean that the other 18 must have seen something else? At some point, it just becomes unnecessarily cumulative.
Let's say that some eyewitnesses testify that they heard 5 shots. Under the circumstances, that wouldn't be enough to convince me that A did not kill B, but to each their own. Same deal if a witness or two thought that the gun used was something other than a .357, or that they couldn't see what kind of gun was used. Let's say that no gun was ever found, and you have the bulk of the eyewitness testimony with A as the shooter. What then? How about if no weapon is found, and 10 of the people ID A as the shooter, while another 2 ID Person C as the shooter? What if it's 3/4 for A, 1/4 for C? How about 50/50? What if it's 50/50 and no weapon is found, but .357 shells are found at the scene and Person A has a .357 registered in his name?
There's no right or wrong answers to most of these types of questions in the eyes of the law, it is a question of what you need to make you believe that something happened in a particular way, and, ultimately, what a jury finds persuasive.
This is not a criminal prosecution, however, this is the private court we all have in our heads that is in session when we need to pass judgment on something, and there's no presumption of guilt or innocence there. Also, for most people, in a vacuum, the same level of confidence needed to convict someone of a crime is not necessary to believe something.
You're getting your verbiage mixed up. Set aside presumptions and things like that for a moment, and think about things in real world terms. If there was a mountain of circumstantial evidence against my client, I probably would say "look, unless you can come up with an alternative way this can play out, you're hosed, because there's enough evidence for the jury to convict you." Put another way, the presumption of evidence dissolves when the other side meets their burden of production and persuasion, and the onus is then put on you to defend yourself.Last edited by toasty; October 21, 2009, 06:28:41 PM.Comment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
So now the alleged 9/11 conspirators face trial in the US. Its not surprising not everyone is keen on this. It should be interesting to watchOriginally posted by res0nat0rComment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
USA Today's Mike Walter was driving near the Pentagon when he saw an American Airlines jet fly directly into the country's military nerve center. [544kB WAV download]
A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye.
It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke.Anlauf was watching TV coverage of the Trade Center burning shortly before 9:30 a.m. when she decided to return to her 14th-floor room from another part of the hotel. Once in her room, she heard a "loud roar" and looked out the window to see what was going on."Suddenly I saw this plane right outside my window," Anlauf said during a telephone interview from her hotel room this morning. "You felt like you could touch it; it was that close. It was just incredible. "Then it shot straight across from where we are and flew right into the Pentagon. It was just this huge fireball that crashed into the wall (of the Pentagon). When it hit, the whole hotel shook."
Battle, an office worker at the Pentagon, was standing outside the building and just about to enter when the aircraft struck. "It was coming down head first," he said. "And when the impact hit, the cars and everything were just shaking."Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head.
"It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane," Mr Campo said. "I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here."“I was going past the Pentagon, really inching a yard or so every couple of minutes. I had just passed the closest place the Pentagon is to the exit on 395 . . . when all of a sudden I heard the roar of a jet engine.“I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn’t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment.
Bell, who had been less than 100 feet from the initial impact of the plane, was nearly struck by one of the plane´s wings as it sped by him. In shock, he got into his truck, which had been parked in the trailer compound, and sped away. He wandered around Arlington in his truck and tried to make wireless phone calls. He ended up back at Singleton´s headquarters in Gaithersburg two hours later, according to President Singleton, not remembering much.
The full impact of the closeness of the crash wasn´t realized until coworkers noticed damage to Bell´s work vehicle. He had plastic and rivets from an airplane imbedded in its sheet metal, but Bell had no idea what had happened.Mark Bright, actually saw the plane hit the building. He had been manning the guard booth at the Mall Entrance to the building.
"I saw the plane at the Navy Annex area," he said. "I knew it was going to strike the building because it was very, very low -- at the height of the street lights. It knocked a couple down." The plane would have been seconds from impact -- the annex is only a few hundred yards from the Pentagon.
He said he heard the plane "power-up" just before it struck the Pentagon. "As soon as it struck the building I just called in an attack, because I knew it couldn't be accidental," Bright said. He jumped into his police cruiser and headed to the area.''Out of my peripheral vision,'' Cissell said, ''I saw this plane coming in and it was low - and getting lower.
''If you couldn't touch it from standing on the highway, you could by standing on your car.''
In the next seconds dozens of things flashed through his mind.
''I thought, 'This isn't really happening. That is a big plane.' Then I saw the faces of some of the passengers on board,'' Cissell said.
He remembers the helipad the plane flew over before smacking into the Pentagon was close enough to him that ''I could have thrown a baseball at it and hit it.''He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off.
"It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said.
"I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," Creed recalls.“Traffic was at a standstill, so I parked on the shoulder, not far from the scene and ran to the site. Next to me was a cab from D.C., its windshield smashed out by pieces of lampposts. There were pieces of the plane all over the highway, pieces of wing, I think.”Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. "There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in."Being a former transport type (60's era) I cannot understand how that plane hit where it did giving the direction the aircraft was taking at the time.
As most know, the Pentagon lies at the bottom of two hills from the west with the east side being next to the river at 14th street bridge. One hill is at the Navy Annex and the other is Arlington Cemetery. The plane came up I-395 also known as Shirley Hwy. (most likely used as a reference point.) The plane had been seen making a lazy pattern in the no fly zone over the White House and US Cap. Why the plane did not hit incoming traffic coming down the river from the north to Reagan Nat'l. is beyond me. Strangely, no one at the Reagan Tower noticed the aircraft. Andrews AFB radar should have also picked up the aircraft I would think. Nevertheless, the aircarft went southwest near Springfield and then veered left over Arlington and then put the nose down coming over Ft Myer picking off trees and light poles near the helicopter pad next to building. It was as if he leveled out at the last minute and put it square into the building. The wings came off as if it went through an arch way leaving a hole in the side of the building it seems a little larger than the wide body of the aircraft. The entry point was so clean that the roof (shown in news photo) fell in on the wreckage.Terrance Kean, 35, who lives in a 14-story building nearby, heard the loud jet engines and glanced out his window.
"I saw this very, very large passenger jet," said the architect, who had been packing for a move. "It just plowed right into the side of the Pentagon. The nose penetrated into the portico. And then it sort of disappeared, and there was fire and smoke everywhere. . . . It was very sort of surreal."One of the aircraft's engines somehow ricocheted out of the building and arched into the Pentagon's mall parking area between the main building and the new loading dock facility, said Charles H. Krohn, the Army's deputy chief of public affairs. Those fleeing the building heard a loud secondary explosion about 10 min. after the initial impact.Maj. Leibner drove in and made it as far as the south parking lot, where he got out on foot. "I heard the plane first," he said. "I thought it was a flyover Arlington cemetery."
From his vantage point, Maj. Leibner looked up and saw the plane come in. "I was about 100 yards away," he said. "You could see through the windows of the aircraft. I saw it hit."
The plane came in hard and level and was flown full throttle into the building, dead center mass, Maj. Leibner said. "The plane completely entered the building," he said. "I got a little repercussion, from the sound, the blast. I've heard artillery, and that was louder than the loudest has to offer.Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I don’t know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just ‘No, no, no, no,’ because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash.William Middleton Sr., was running his street sweeper through the cemetery when he heard a harsh whistling sound overhead. Middleton looked up and spotted a commercial jet whose pilot seemed to be fighting with his own craft.Middleton said the plane was no higher than the tops of telephone poles as it lurched toward the Pentagon. The jet accelerated in the final few hundred yards before it tore into the building.
Looking up didn't tell me what type of plane it was because it was so close I could only see the bottom. Realising the Pentagon was its target, I didn't think the careering, full-throttled craft would get that far. Its downward angle was too sharp, its elevation of maybe 50 feet, too low. Street lights toppled as the plane barely cleared the Interstate 395 overpass.
The thought that I was about to die was immediate and certain. This plane was going to hit me along with all the other commuters trapped on Washington Boulevard.
Gripping the steering wheel of my vibrating car, I involuntarily ducked as the wobbling plane thundered over my head. Once it passed, I raised slightly and grimaced as the left wing dipped and scraped the helicopter area just before the nose crashed into the southwest wall of the Pentagon.I was at a complete stop on the road in front of the helipad at the Pentagon; what I had thought would be a shortcut was as slow as the other routes I had taken that morning. I looked idly out my window to the left -- and saw a plane flying so low I said, “holy cow, that plane is going to hit my car” (not my actual words). The car shook as the plane flew over. It was so close that I could read the numbers under the wing.
And then the plane crashed. My mind could not comprehend what had happened. Where did the plane go? For some reason I expected it to bounce off the Pentagon wall in pieces. But there was no plane visible, only huge billows of smoke and torrents of fire.American Airlines Flight 77 approached from the west, coming in low over the nearby five-story Navy Annex on a hill overlooking the Pentagon.
"He has lights off, wheels up, nose down," Probst recalled. The plane seemed to be accelerating directly toward him. He froze.
"I knew I was dead," he said later. "The only thing I thought was, 'Damn, my wife has to go to another funeral, and I'm not going to see my two boys again.'."
He dove to his right. He recalls the engine passing on one side of him, about six feet away.
The plane's right wing went through a generator trailer "like butter," Probst said. The starboard engine hit a low cement wall and blew apart.Ragland described billowing black smoke and "what looked like white confetti raining down everywhere." He said it soon became apparent "that the 'confetti' was little bits of airplane, falling down after being flung high into the bright, blue sky."A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "It added power on its way in," he said. "The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball."Thomas D. Trapasso, a political appointee in the Clinton Administration who is now looking for work, was making telephone calls from his deck in Arlington Village, about 1 mi. south of the Pentagon and just west of the Interstate 395 (I-395) highway. He was startled by the large American Airlines aircraft flying about 300 ft. overhead. "The engines were just screaming, and the wheels were up," Trapasso said. "It disappeared over the trees, and I heard a boom. I knew something awful had happened--that an airplane had crashed somewhere in Washington, D.C.About 9:40, Alan Wallace had finished fixing the foam metering valve on the back of his fire truck parked in the Pentagon fire station and walked to the front of the station. He looked up and saw a jetliner coming straight at him. It was about 25 feet off the ground, no landing wheels visible, a few hundred yards away and closing fast.
"Runnnnn!" he yelled to a pal. There was no time to look back, barely time to scramble. He made it about 30 feet, heard a terrible roar, felt the heat, and dove underneath a van, skinning his stomach as he slid along the blacktop, sailing under it as though he were riding a luge. The van protected him against burning metal that was flying around. A few seconds later he was sliding back out to check on his friend and then race back to the firetruck. He jumped in, threw it into gear, but the accelerator was dead. The entire back of the truck was destroyed, the cab on fire. He grabbed the radio headset and called the main station at Fort Myer to report the unimaginable.
The sun was still low in the sky, obscured by the Pentagon and the enormous billowing clouds of acrid smoke, making it hauntingly dark. The ground was on fire. Trees were on fire. Hot slices of aluminum were everywhere.
It was fun while it lasted...Comment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
Res are you in there, are you in there reswe mite just consider this case-closed
Originally posted by res0nat0rComment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
That testimony was compiled by email.
Here a Testimony compiled face to face.
Funny how none of them witnesses where willing to talk after they realised the ramifications of their accounts.Originally posted by res0nat0rComment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
im not going around anymore on this shit. you guys are too blind to anything but your stupid viewpoints to even talk to about this anymore, it must be fun to be such 'rebels and patriots'
. too bad you two are so riled up about something which never happened in your country, and are so pissed about a cover up. good luck holding your breath for a historical revision of what happened. i'm waiting for that day too. 
Comment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
So your to pissed to talk about but willing to brag you found it entertaining in you VIP section. You overlooked the fact that them events have had an impact on the rest of the world. Every week 2 miles down the road from where I live they march the coffins of the dead solders through the streets. The whole thing is pathetic but I'm glad you find it amusing.Originally posted by res0nat0rComment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
yeah im over it now, im busy at work again so no more entertainment.
also im not the one who has said 'some of the soldiers are pricks, wives shouldnt whine if their husbands get killed in war, they enrolled, so fuck em'Comment
-
Re: you know what's astonishing?
heheh ok
Comment
Comment