Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

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  • bobjuice
    Banned
    • May 2008
    • 4894

    Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

    Rupert Cornwell: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

    Barack Obama has committed America to the long haul in Afghanistan – but heavy losses and mounting dissent are forcing him to consider turning the strategy on its head

    Thursday, 24 September 2009














    Six months after proclaiming a new commitment to the war in Afghanistan, President Barack Obama is under growing pressure to make what would amount to a U-turn in US policy and scale back America's commitment to a conflict that many experts – and a majority of the public – now fear may be unwinnable.
    The debate, which divides Mr Obama's most senior advisers, was thrown into stark relief by the leaked report of General Stanley McChrystal, the commander of US and allied forces in Afghanistan, warning that the war might be lost within a year without a further boost in troop strength and a major change in strategy to combat the spreading Taliban insurgency.
    General McChrystal's bleak assessment coupled with Washington's frustration with the Afghan leader Hamid Karzai and the fraud-ridden election over which he presided, has reignited a rift between Vice-President Joseph Biden and Hillary Clinton, the Secretary of State, over how the war should be waged. It has also left Mr Obama facing a fateful choice: whether to go along with his generals and send yet more troops, or stand current policy on its head.


    Spoken or unspoken, behind the debate lurks the shade of Vietnam. It emerged yesterday that The Washington Post, the first to report General McChrystal's devastating 66-page memorandum, agreed to delay publication by 24 hours, omitting elements relating to future tactics that the Pentagon and White House said might endanger American troops on the front lines in Afghanistan.
    Bob Woodward, the paper's investigative reporter, who broke the story, compares the document to the secret history of the Vietnam war that caused a sensation when it was obtained in 1971 by The New York Times. The so-called Pentagon Papers "came out eight years too late," Mr Woodward says.
    The stakes are now huge – so huge that the President barely mentioned Afghanistan in his address to the United Nations General Assembly yesterday. If Washington is perceived as opposing a further troop build-up, or leaning towards a reduction, then other countries in the coalition, where the eight-year-long war is even more unpopular than here, will rush for the exits.
    Hitherto, the issue of the war in Afghanistan has seemed straightforward. In contrast to Iraq, Afghanistan has been the "good war" – a war of necessity, fought to make sure that a repeat of the 9/11 attacks, directed from Afghanistan by an al-Qa'ida sheltered by the Taliban, would never occur again.
    Underlining this reinvigorated commitment, Mr Obama authorised an increase in US strength in Afghanistan to 68,000 by the end of the year, and named General McChrystal, previously in charge of US special forces, as his new commander on the ground. But the latter's recommendation of a boost of 30,000 to 40,000 confronts this president with a dilemma akin to that facing his predecessor over Iraq three years ago: to surge or not to surge? And views within the administration differ sharply.
    Essentially the choice, in strategic jargon, is between counter-terrorism and counter-insurgency. The latter, implying a broad war against the Taliban to prevent it returning to power, seems to be what General McChrystal has in mind, and has long been backed by Mrs Clinton. Only this week, she had scathing words for those who argued that al-Qa'ida was no longer a factor in Afghanistan. "If Afghanistan is taken over again by the Taliban, I can't tell you how fast al-Qa'ida would be back."
    The Vice-President, on the other hand, wants a narrower focus on al-Qa'ida itself, both in Afghanistan and Pakistan, where security forces have scored some important recent successes against the terrorist organisation and its Taliban allies. Under this approach, the US would require fewer forces in the field.
    Instead of trying to protect the general population from the Taliban and operating a "hearts and minds" policy to win over civilian support, it would concentrate on targeted strikes on al-Qa'ida operatives, relying on umnanned drones, missile attacks and the special forces where General McChrystal is an expert. Simultaneously the training of Afghan government forces would be speeded up.
    A third faction advocates a compromise, either scaling back the requested troop increase, or even starting to reverse it, while at the same time ensuring that the country does not collapse into chaos.
    The White House and Pentagon are now studying the report, and it will be "weeks" before a decision is made, administration officials say. But Mr Obama, once so trenchant on the subject, is now hedging his bets. All options are on the table, he indicated during his blitz of the Sunday talk shows last weekend. "The first question is, are we doing the right thing?" he told CNN.
    As it is, public support for the conflict is dropping sharply, too. According to a Wall Street Journal/NBC poll yesterday, 59 per cent of those surveyed were now "less confident" that the US could achieve a successful end to the war. More than half opposed an increase in American forces, while a third wanted an immediate pullout.
    This growing pessimism is visible on Capitol Hill, too. Earlier this month, Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, warned that neither Capitol Hill nor ordinary voters are in the mood for sending more soldiers to a war that has already taken almost 900 American lives – and 51 in August alone. Then Michigan's Carl Levin, chairman of the powerful Senate Armed Services Committee, declared that the US should send no more troops before a "surge" in Afghan security forces. But as even Pentagon officials concede, training Afghan forces up to the required standard of competence – not to mention loyalty – will be even more difficult than it was in Iraq.
    Complicating matters further, Congressional leadersare now demanding a personal accounting from General McChrystal on how the war is going. For the moment Robert Gates, the Defense Secretary, has resisted the pressure, insisting the commander will only appear on Capitol Hill when a new policy has been decided. But if US casualties continue to grow, he may have little choice in the matter. In the meantime, Mr Obama is increasingly in a corner.
    As Republicans constantly remind him, for the US to wind down its commitment would send a message of weakness and inconsistency to friends and foes alike. But to press on with a long, inconclusive war in a distant corner of Asia carries well-known and equal perils.
    Once again, events are bearing out the famous aphorism of Mark Twain, that "while history doesn't repeat itself, it rhymes".
    What would happen if he changed course now?
    Joel Brinkley, US foreign correspondent, author, and academic
    For most Americans now, Vietnam isn't a particularly powerful image. But policy- makers in charge now had some sort of role in Vietnam; and in Congress the lessons of recent history lay pretty heavily. I'm not sure America is at breaking point, but it does seem as if there is a heated discussion within the administration. Obama is a realist. He inherited this war and he proffered an approach that would reprioritise Afghanistan. But I think he's realised that it's probably too late.
    Julian Thompson, Ex-Marines commander
    The problem with switching to countering al-Qa'ida will be Pakistan, who will say: thank you, but we're not all that keen on having you guys operating in our patch. Perhaps if you're the US government you say you don't care, but that makes it much more difficult to sell. In a sense we're back to where we were in 2001. You can pour in more troops, but you have no guarantee of success. But I honestly don't see it as being parallel to Vietnam. In that situation, America was alone. Here, one of the most crucial things is for them to persuade Nato to share the load.
    Karin von Hippel, Post-conflict expert
    I think ultimately they'll give McChrystal what he needs – he's their man. But first they will have a debate. Before Iraq we didn't have a public debate, and Obama's very conscious of repeating that mistake. He knows he needs to regain waning support. Don't forget that this approach is basically what Obama said would happen in March, when he was trying to dampen expectations – and at the same time on the ground things were ratcheting up. At the moment, there's confusion out there.
    Tim Cross, Major General (Retired)
    The question is, what is the strategic intention in Afghanistan? Is it to enable the emergence of a democratic and stable nation? If that has been the intent, then this would be a serious change. It suggests that our intent is purely to deal with a perceived terrorist threat – but I'm not convinced that is right. So far, the UK has emphasised a comprehensive approach, using our non-military as well as military capability. And if Obama's approach changes, the UK would have to rethink its commitment.
  • dig72
    Gold Gabber
    • Nov 2004
    • 882

    #2
    Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

    The "war" was lost the moment it was started and cannot be won.

    The US and it's partners in crime need to leave Afghanistan asap. Nothing good can ever be gained by their presence. The 'GTFO' stradegy is the best option for Obama.

    Compensation for damage and suffering caused by the US and it's partners in crime should also be paid to Afghanis.

    The next thing to do is arrest those responsible for the needless slaughter of men, woman and children of Afghanistan and have them charged with war crimes.

    The US have no other choice. This is what they must an will eventually have to do. The longer it takes the more needless deaths will be had.

    The US will deservidly be shamed and disgraced upon their inevitable defeat and departure.
    Last edited by dig72; September 26, 2009, 11:44:16 PM.
    “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
    Marcus Tullius Cicero

    Comment

    • bobjuice
      Banned
      • May 2008
      • 4894

      #3
      Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

      I'd go along with that, a war founded on bullshit and not much more

      too many people dead for nothing

      come home eh?

      Comment

      • floridaorange
        I'm merely a humble butler
        • Dec 2005
        • 29116

        #4
        Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

        I'll ask the Major in the Army I met on the airplane last week if we end up playing golf soon, he's been to the middle east now 3 times, and is finishing his second masters degree...

        will report back.

        It was fun while it lasted...

        Comment

        • bobjuice
          Banned
          • May 2008
          • 4894

          #5
          Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

          War in Afghanistan: Not in our name

          Vast majority of Britons back IoS call for UK forces to come home
          By Jane Merrick and Brian Brady in London and Kim Sengupta in Kabul

          Sunday, 15 November 2009






          Seven out of 10 Britons back The Independent on Sunday's call for a phased withdrawal of troops from Afghanistan as a landmark report by Oxfam this week exposes the real human cost of the war.
          The powerful dossier by the aid agency reveals how women and children in Afghanistan are bearing the brunt of the ongoing conflict, undermining the international community's claims that they are the very people being helped by the West's activities.
          Its contents will add to mounting concerns among the public, and in some quarters of the military and the House of Commons, that the US and the UK are fighting an ill-conceived and ill-judged war that has left as many as 32,000 Afghans dead and 235,000 displaced.


          In a ComRes poll for the IoS this weekend, an overwhelming proportion – 71 per cent – supported this newspaper's call for a phased withdrawal of British forces from Afghanistan within a year or so, while just 22 per cent disagreed.
          Nearly half – 47 per cent – think that the threat of terrorism on UK soil is increased by British forces remaining in Afghanistan, while 44 per cent disagree. The position is at odds with the argument put by government ministers that the Afghan campaign was vital to preventing terrorism around the world – and in the UK.
          Douglas Alexander, the Secretary of State for International Development, last night told the IoS that UK forces must remain in Afghanistan to prevent it becoming a "safe haven" for al-Qa'ida, and exporting terror to places including Britain.
          Oxfam's report, published on Wednesday, comes at a critical time in Kabul, London and Washington, as politicians and generals decide whether more troops should be sent to fight the Taliban.
          President Barack Obama said on Friday a decision would be made "soon" on whether to agree to the request of US commander General Stanley McChrystal for 40,000 more soldiers.
          The President has been urged by the US ambassador to Kabul, Karl Eikenberry, to resist a surge, because President Hamid Karzai's government lacks legitimacy.
          Mr Brown will set out Britain's long-term strategy in Afghanistan in a speech at the Lord Mayor's Banquet in London tomorrow. Britain has 9,000 troops in Afghanistan and Mr Brown has already agreed to send a further 500.
          But there were signs this weekend that cabinet unity is starting to fracture over the conflict, with Peter Hain, Secretary of State for Wales, telling The Times that the Government needed to "get a grip" on the mission strategy. Andy Burnham and John Denham were also said to be expressing doubts.
          The IoS poll revealed that 46 per cent believed that Mr Brown has handled the issue of Afghanistan better than David Cameron would do as PM, while 39 per cent backed the Tory leader.
          Oxfam does not advocate a withdrawal from Afghanistan, but its report, The Cost of War in Afghanistan, amounts to a forceful indictment of the mission. It is expected to reflect a catalogue of evidence that ordinary Afghans are paying a heavy price after eight years of war.
          Researchers for Oxfam spoke to more than 700 Afghans in 14 provinces, who provided powerful testimonies.
          Shamsullah, in Balkh province, said: "Families sell their daughters for money to save the other members of the family from starvation." Mirwais in Herat said: "Illiteracy, forced marriages and all other domestic violence are the consequences of the war on women."
          And Noor Mohammad, from Nangarhar, said: "There are lots of differences between now and the past. But one thing that is the same is the bombing. Before it was the Russians, but now it is the Americans."
          The wide-ranging evaluation of the lives of Afghans lists daily challenges, including the threat of lethal attacks from all sides, unemployment, poor education and healthcare, discrimination and violence against women.
          It echoes other official research, collated by the IoS.
          Various casualty counts suggest that between 12,000 and 32,000 civilians have been killed either directly or indirectly due to the fighting since 2001.
          The United Nations has said the "surge" in fighting in recent months has also taken its toll on the non-military population. More than 2,000 had died as a result of the conflict in the first 10 months of this year – at a faster rate than any time since the initial invasion.
          The number of botched Nato air strikes, killing civilians, is continuing to rise. Latest UN figures for the first half of this year alone report 40 rogue air strikes, which are believed to have killed 200 civilians. The figure compares with the 116 Afghan civilians killed in 13 aerial strikes in 2006, and 321 in 22 attacks the following year. In 2008, 552 were killed.
          The total number of "internally displaced persons" is rising for the first time since 2001.
          More than eight years after the war began, the country's literacy rate is still the fourth-lowest in the world, and almost half of all children between seven and 12 are not attending primary school.
          The British government has spent at least £12bn on the war so far. Some 232 British troops have been killed since combat operations began.
          Mr Alexander, a close ally of the Prime Minister, said Britain's national security was behind the mission to stabilise Afghanistan. He added: "Progress on weakening the Taliban and strengthening the Afghan state will create the conditions for a new political settlement in the country.
          "Delivering on these objectives will neither be quick nor easy, despite the outstanding heroism of our troops. It requires political leadership within Afghanistan and co-ordinated efforts by the international community. What is at stake, however, is not simply a stronger Afghanistan but a safer Britain."
          The President's options: Four scenarios rejected by Obama
          President Obama has rejected four options presented to him, all of which involve sending more troops to Afghanistan, and none of which had attached any strings relating to withdrawal, or reform in the Karzai administration. They were:
          1. Send between 10,000 and 15,000 extra troops to augment the 68,000 US military on the ground now. Vice-president Joe Biden – a long-time supporter of counter-terrorist, as opposed to counter-insurgency, measures – favours this option.
          2. Send 20,000 more troops. This, together with Option 3, is the so-called McChrystal-lite scenario.
          3. Send 30,000 more troops.
          4. Send 40,000 more troops, as General McChrystal wants. The danger is that it could give other, less committed members of the coalition all the excuse they need to pull out.
          The widow: 'The war continues because of outsiders'
          Muslima, a widow from Kabul
          "I lost my husband in a suicide attack. He was killed when he was riding a motorcycle. We had moved to Peshawar, in Pakistan, where we lived in poverty. We came back to our country when we thought it was safe. Now I am a widow and my children are fatherless.
          "When the fighting increased during the civil war, we migrated to near Jalalabad. We spent three years living in tents. Then we spent another two years in the main city and things were very hard. Then we had to move again, to Pakistan, before coming here.
          "Now the war continues because of outsiders who don't let us live in peace. We spend day and night in fear. We are always afraid that there will be an explosion. We wonder, will our children come home from school? Mostly poor people's rights have been violated. Poverty is extreme in Afghanistan. My own children have been deprived of the right to education. We are in need of food. There are no jobs for our young generation. There is no life for them. If people are jobless, they will commit crimes like kidnapping, killing. They become suicide bombers, and destroy our country."
          The farmer: 'It is worse under Karzai'
          Mohammed Azizi, veterinarian and farmer from Parwan
          "Year by year, the security situation has become worse and suicide attacks have spread. We have suffered for a very long time. We have very bad memories from the Taliban period. I still can't understand why they hated us. They called themselves Muslims, but they burnt our homes.
          "I know a person that loaded his donkey with food. The Taliban asked him what he was carrying. He explained that he had brought food for his children. But these cruel people threw fuel on the donkey and burnt him alive along with the food.
          "When the American war against the Taliban took place, we were optimistic. We thought that Allah was bringing us light after darkness. Now, during the time of Karzai we know that the security situation has got worse instead of better. The government should not focus on building their own wealth. It should think of reconstructing our country."
          The housewife: 'Please stop the war'
          Fatima, a housewife from Kabul
          "I lost my youngest son to a rocket attack. He was 18 years old. Our house was looted and destroyed in the war. We had to leave with just some clothes. We went to Kandahar and settled in Nasaji City.
          "All people suffer during war but women and children suffer the most. When the Taliban came, all of the schools were closed for women. Nobody could leave their homes to work. We went to Pakistan until we were convinced that our country was secure enough to return.
          "Nowadays, suicide bombers are scaring people. People can't go anywhere without the fear that something bad will happen. but if we want peace we have to discuss this with our people – including the Taliban and mujahadeen, they are our Muslim brothers.
          "My message to the international community is: stop the war. We are tired of war. We do not want brothers killing brothers any more."

          Comment

          • Steve Graham
            DJ Jelly
            • Jun 2004
            • 12887

            #6
            Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

            seriously, all these threads read the same, just let these fucking countries destroy themselves, who else in the world gives a fuck about the middle east and their ghey "religion"
            let them all kill each other for whatever reason and move the fuck on

            Comment

            • vinnie97
              Are you Kidding me??
              • Jul 2007
              • 3454

              #7
              Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

              With porous borders to our south (US), I'm not sure leaving that destabilized land to the radicals is such a good idea.

              Comment

              • ssl
                Addiction started
                • Dec 2009
                • 308

                #8
                Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                Originally posted by Steve Graham
                seriously, all these threads read the same, just let these fucking countries destroy themselves, who else in the world gives a fuck about the middle east and their ghey "religion"
                let them all kill each other for whatever reason and move the fuck on

                It's all all about the money! Some of them with this war are getting very rich!They have no other objective!


                http://www.ssetss.com/

                Comment

                • Miroslav
                  WHOA I can change this!1!
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 4122

                  #9
                  Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                  "Has America reached a turning point in Afghanistan?"

                  In a word: no.

                  This thread can now be closed. Thank you.
                  mixes: www.waxdj.com/miroslav

                  Comment

                  • floridaorange
                    I'm merely a humble butler
                    • Dec 2005
                    • 29116

                    #10
                    Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EHlXoqq2DI[/YOUTUBE]

                    [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kquzrrI3IJI[/YOUTUBE]

                    It was fun while it lasted...

                    Comment

                    • hambino21
                      PFC Semen Ham
                      • Jul 2004
                      • 863

                      #11
                      Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                      . It sucks that we haven't gotten as far as one would like. The U.S Being considered "criminals" is obsured considering the money I have seen with my own eyes being put into trying to rebuilding that country. I understand there has been a lot of corruption on both sides but that doesn't make it right to suggest such things. DON"T EVER take away from the lost women and men who won't return from this conflict by completely demeaning what they have done there. Thats utter disrespect. You may think they died in vain, but many don't agree. Like I have said, I have seen the good things with my own eyes, but its kinda hard to get things done with a douchebag leader in charge of the country in question, not to mention the current definition of "war". If the military was allowed to do things the way things should be done, this sort of thing would have been done a long time ago. We fight with our hands tied.
                      Noone is saying the U.S does no wrong(thats obvious), but some of the shit uttered on this forum is such bullshit. I do however believe we should pullout, especially considereing the country doesn't even want to help itself, but Afghanistan is a point of strategy and always will be as long as the middle east is a topic. If you don't think looking out for your country's interest/safety isn't important, than thats on you. At least you're not in charge

                      Just to let you know. Noones going to hang their head in shame upon exiting the country. Happy to disappoint
                      " Focus on the subtleties and the world becomes grander"

                      - Me-

                      Comment

                      • Miroslav
                        WHOA I can change this!1!
                        • Apr 2006
                        • 4122

                        #12
                        Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                        ^^ Look, I'm all for supporting the troops. I'm not trying to vilify them. But that doesn't mean I'm going to put the blinders on and patriotically follow any bullshit suggestion for a war that comes froma bunch of politicians who inherently have money and power on the brain. Certain wars are very justified; the US role in the second world war is a prime example. Iraq and Afghanistan...I don't know what the hell we're doing there or what the point is. Does anyone? All I hear from uber-patriotic people is that we're doing it "for our freedom". Really? What does that actually mean? How do US troops in Iraq make me any safer?

                        I'll tell you something: democracy-style nation building doesn't work! It can't be done. You can't come into a country with a strong, traditional Islamic culture and minimal infrastucture, bomb them even farther back into the Stone Age, and then rebuild them and force them into a modern democracy all within a reasonable timeframe. And it's not just a money/resource issue; it's first and foremost a cultural issue. You can't just shift an entire culture all the way to the other side of the spectrum and accelerate them several generations in economic evolution. They will hate you every step of the way, and as soon as you leave, guess what will happen? They'll go back to their old ways of fighting and Islamic whatever the heck is that they want to do over there.

                        And where to next? Pakistan? Iran? Pakistan is an equal cluster of a mess, and both nations probably pose a much greater risk to us. You just can't be the nation-building police force of the entire globe. It didn't work in Vietnam, it didn't work for the Soviets in Afghanistan, and it's not going to work for the US, either.

                        So yes, we can support the troops and still point out that these kinds of international nation-building policies of the past half decade and more have been stupid.
                        mixes: www.waxdj.com/miroslav

                        Comment

                        • hambino21
                          PFC Semen Ham
                          • Jul 2004
                          • 863

                          #13
                          Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                          ^^ trust me Im with you bro. I wasn't directing this reply towards you. I just don't appreciate peeps calling us criminals or what we stand for being corruption only. I def don't do things blindly, I question things all of the time, I also hear about it. Once again I agree with you for the most part, trust me. This whole KBR thing with these war profiteering mofos has to stop. If you knew the resentment between the military and these civilian phucks, yo would realize how much we as military understand the whole corruption issue. The whole situaiton is F'd I just don't like hearing people always talking shit about us all of the time. Just my 2 cents. Ive had a few beers and I think Im headed to sleep.
                          " Focus on the subtleties and the world becomes grander"

                          - Me-

                          Comment

                          • dig72
                            Gold Gabber
                            • Nov 2004
                            • 882

                            #14
                            Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                            Originally posted by hambino21
                            . It sucks that we haven't gotten as far as one would like. The U.S Being considered "criminals" is obsured considering the money I have seen with my own eyes being put into trying to rebuilding that country. I understand there has been a lot of corruption on both sides but that doesn't make it right to suggest such things. DON"T EVER take away from the lost women and men who won't return from this conflict by completely demeaning what they have done there. Thats utter disrespect. You may think they died in vain, but many don't agree. Like I have said, I have seen the good things with my own eyes, but its kinda hard to get things done with a douchebag leader in charge of the country in question, not to mention the current definition of "war". If the military was allowed to do things the way things should be done, this sort of thing would have been done a long time ago. We fight with our hands tied.
                            Noone is saying the U.S does no wrong(thats obvious), but some of the shit uttered on this forum is such bullshit. I do however believe we should pullout, especially considereing the country doesn't even want to help itself, but Afghanistan is a point of strategy and always will be as long as the middle east is a topic. If you don't think looking out for your country's interest/safety isn't important, than thats on you. At least you're not in charge
                            Your anger and frustration should directed at your leaders. They are the only ones to blame.

                            Just to let you know. Noones going to hang their head in shame upon exiting the country. Happy to disappoint
                            You don't have a choice in the matter. Your government has already shamed you.

                            You will also leave disgraced and defeated. And once again, the choice isn't yours to make. The matter was already decided for you by your government.

                            It seems your leaders have alot of explaining to do.
                            “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
                            Marcus Tullius Cicero

                            Comment

                            • dig72
                              Gold Gabber
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 882

                              #15
                              Re: Has America reached the turning point in Afghanistan?

                              Originally posted by hambino21
                              The whole situaiton is F'd I just don't like hearing people always talking shit about us all of the time. Just my 2 cents. Ive had a few beers and I think Im headed to sleep.
                              In the end it's the soldiers who are pulling the triggers/pressing the buttons of death and destruction.

                              Soldiers do as they are told, right or wrong no questions asked.

                              Blame your leaders for all the backlash that you receive.
                              “A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murderer is less to fear.”
                              Marcus Tullius Cicero

                              Comment

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