Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

[fyrestarter]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

The US Central Command has released the following:

We are aware that several media outlets are airing footage depicting gunfire from a U.S. helicopter and claiming that this footage was recorded during an incident in 2007 in which two Reuters reporters were killed. At this time, we are working to verify the source of the video, its veracity, and when or where it was recorded. The incident presumably associated with this video was investigated in 2007, and the releasable portions of that investigation are available [here].

http://www2.centcom.mil/sites/foia/rr/CENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210/Forms/AllItems.aspx?RootFolder=%2fsites%2ffoia%2frr%2fCENTCOM%20Regulation%20CCR%2025210%2fDeath%20of%20Reuters%20Journalists&FolderCTID=&View=%7B41BA1AAF-785A-481A-A630-12470AFCD6FD%7D

[dig72]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

From what I could see, there did seem to be some weapons in the hands of the civilians. The camera did look like an rpg. Neither of us were there so we can't say what the soldiers saw exactly or how things appeared to them.On top of that, when the apache circled it did seem that the photographer came out from behind a corner to take a picture and then hid behind it again.

What are the Americans still doing in Iraq?

Add that to the many insurgents who dress and appear as civilians and then end up killing US soldiers

Iraqi civilians are the resistance.

Who do you think is trying to force out the US and it's partners in crime from Iraq?

Now the van... If you're driving a van with passengers and kids in an area that you already know to be dangerous and come upon a spot where there was recent gun fire, blood, and bodies everywhere, do you really stop?

What if it were your brother, son or fellow American that were wounded, would you stop, pick him up or leave him to die?

Those courageous Iraqis had no idea that they were being targeted by cowards in the sky.

FFS, let people carry away their dead or wounded.

IMO, most of the blame lies with the commanding officers and the leaders.

Agreed.

[Mr.Big]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

Dzone i did say it was fucked up remember. You are only quoting what you wanted to hear there.

I do agree with fyrestarted on this, until you have been in a warzone how do you really know how you would react in that type of situation, those pilots might have had rpg's wizzing past their windows minutes before hand. It seems like really bad intelligence to me, still wrong obviously but i personally am not going to get riled up about it.

The war on terror was and is bullshit too be honest. I think American and the other Allied forces should pack their bags and return home asap. They have helped Iraq(somewhat) but how long will that last once they are gone. Afghan is still a mess, fighting against an ideal is a losing battle.

It seems to be about taking sides when you boil down to it. I don't agree with what the Allied forces are doing but don't care enough either.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

From what I could see, there did seem to be some weapons in the hands of the civilians. The camera did look like an rpg. Neither of us were there so we can't say what the soldiers saw exactly or how things appeared to them. On top of that, when the apache circled it did seem that the photographer came out from behind a corner to take a picture and then hid behind it again. Add that to the many insurgents who dress and appear as civilians and then end up killing US soldiers, then you can see why they would look to open fire. How many soldiers have been killed by deceiving tactics? We don't see those videos. Just as the soldiers know that they are in a dangerous war zone and anything can happen, so do (or should) the reporters.
Now the van... If you're driving a van with passengers and kids in an area that you already know to be dangerous and come upon a spot where there was recent gun fire, blood, and bodies everywhere, do you really stop? The apaches were waiting for a convoy of brads to come and check the victims.

Neither of those things excuse however the taunting, the rejoicing, and the "video game" like behavior of the soldiers. But until I've been in a war, engaged in gruesome firefights, and seen some of those things they have seen, I can't explain it. Some come out ok, some come out fucked up, some dont come up at all.

nice summary

it sure looked like an RPG to me (but i have no experience)

having declared that the injured person on the ground had no weapon - it appeared excessive to shoot up the van - but there is no way you could tell there were children in that van in real time - it wasnt until they zoomed in on the image that you could see figures.

I still think there was no reason to be in Iraq to begin with - but that is not the discussion here.

[floridaorange]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

until you have been in a warzone how do you really know how you would react in that type of situation.

Very true

[toasty]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

I still think there was no reason to be in Iraq to begin with - but that is not the discussion here.

Maybe it should be.

The points that people have made on both sides of this issue are valid. It's hard to second-guess the judgment of someone who has been placed in a situation where his life is literally on the line at any moment, and people that pose a risk to them aren't necessarily (and probably aren't) wearing fatigues. I could definitely see how that guy hiding by the building could be interpreted as someone aiming an RPG at the chopper.

On the other hand, it's an impossibly fucked up story, and the cavalier reaction of the soldiers is really troubling -- although I would imagine that if your job involves taking other people's lives, you have to do something to dissociate yourself from what you're doing and dehumanize the enemy, so that reaction isn't terribly surprising, either. Really, really sad.

Ultimately though, if we don't invade Iraq, these folks are not in this situation. Yes, war is hell, and innocent people die in war, but they don't have to if you don't have a cowboy with an itchy trigger finger sending his troops into war under false pretenses. That's of course a wild oversimplification of the morass that is the war in Iraq, but the point is that I blame the Bush administration for putting these guys in this position at least as much as I blame them for their actions.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

Maybe it should be.

Personally I would say the issues are distinct.
one question is whether these particular soldiers (and their command line) committed some kid of atrocity in this particular situation (the one caught on video.)

its an entirely different question (in my book) from whether Bush and his crony government should have invaded Iraq in the first place and whether gave any thought to a strategy after:
1. bomb the fck out of everything
2. TBD

[Kiff]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

I whole-heartedly agree that this “war on terror” is a big waste of life, money, and time. That being said, if you watch the video from the 2:05-2:30 point, you can clearly see three guys holding weapons. Two AK-47’s (maybe they're kalashnikovs, but clearly weapons none-the-less), and especially at the 2:23-2:24 mark, you can clearly see the RPG (you know, that 4-foot tube the guy in the middle is holding, if not, that is the most absurd “camera”, aside from ant-cam, in existence). That is no camera (seeing that the two reporters had already passed by), so there were certainly weapons present. It’s just sad that the anti-American peeps ignore that detail and see only what they want to… It is certainly sad that the reporters were killed, but reporters dying from American bullets or bombs pales in comparison to the reporters that get killed when embedded with American and coalition forces (personally, I find it sadder when there is no outrage when a reporter is killed by an IED being detonated next to a Marine, but all hell breaks loose when Americans errantly take the life of a reporter embedded with the enemy, and I have yet to hear Reuters issue any complaints about their reporters being killed by insurgents). All journalists at war risk their lives for their profession and that is admirable, but that is a risk that comes with the job. I do acknowledge that there are some isolated cases where American troops have committed atrocities, but such is the nature of war and conflict, and they should be punished accordingly (though I disagree with the anti-American groups that insurgents are given a "pass" or even glorified in this case). The only thing I find disturbing in the video is that the gunner opened fire on a van with children in it and the people trying to help the wounded, which would be a violation of the Geneva Wartime Conventions (what I find odd about this Geneva Convention business, though, is that I have not heard once, anyone ever point out the Geneva Convention violations committed by the insurgent, you know, such as the beheading of civilian reporters , that the Anti-American people probably watched with glee, on video and the execution of coalition POW’s, but again, I know this is a fact totally ignored and unacknowledged by the Anti-American peeps). Again, I don’t condone war, but I cannot just sit idly by and have our men and women over there being made out to be the only bad guys. The best solution is to bring them home, cut off any aid (since they don’t want us there anyway) and let the Middle East figure out its own problems.

[Huggie Smiles]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1978017,00.html?xid=rss-topstories

according to that article - the reporters knowingly embedded with insurgents on a day when US forces were under attack from insurgents in that town.

[Shpira]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

Why didn't the government publish this video if those were weapons and if it was a justified killing?
They knew the video was coming and they did nothing about it? The correct action would have been to publish it first and give evidence to support the pilots action. The guys from Wikileaks have announced that this video was going to be published more than two months ago yet apart from putting pressure on the web site supporters the administration and the pentagon have done nothing to refute their claim.
I can't say that its "clear" from the video that anyone is holding any weapons or that the pilots are under any threat. "One knelt to take a photograph, without wearing any vest or other apparel indicating he was a reporter. From the Apache, the camera was mistaken for an RPG launcher"

from the time article

[Shpira]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

"anti-American" peeps made me lol

[dig72]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

A pretty good write up on this issue.

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2010/04/06/iraq

[runningman]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

whether they were holding weapons or not is irrelevant. Last I heard Iraq wasn't the safest place to walk in the streets. I would carry a weapon myself if I was walking the streets of Iraq. It doesn't mean you are a bad person becaseu you want to protect yourself in a war zone.

This video just shows that absolute satanic mentality of the average American soldier. They are evil in ways that the world has never seen. Listen to that soldier masturbating about killing lives.. The fact that anyone on here is wondering whether the camera was a weaon or not is absurd. The Americans weren't in danger. They weren;t engaged. They were on a satinic killing rampage plain and simple.

Some of you are so diluted on what we are talking about.. they are in their own country they are allowed to protect themselves. Wake Up MS and talk about the right issues.. This isn't a debate about if they did or dodn't have weapons, This is a debate about If the Americans soldiers are murderers.

Rot in hell soldier.





PS why aren't we talking about when Obama is going to fulfill a campaign promise to get out of this stupid war!!!!

[fyrestarter]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

whether they were holding weapons or not is irrelevant. Last I heard Iraq wasn't the safest place to walk in the streets. I would carry a weapon myself if I was walking the streets of Iraq. It doesn't mean you are a bad person becaseu you want to protect yourself in a war zone.

This video just shows that absolute satanic mentality of the average American soldier. They are evil in ways that the world has never seen. Listen to that soldier masturbating about killing lives.. The fact that anyone on here is wondering whether the camera was a weaon or not is absurd. The Americans weren't in danger. They weren;t engaged. They were on a satinic killing rampage plain and simple.

Some of you are so diluted on what we are talking about.. they are in their own country they are allowed to protect themselves. Wake Up MS and talk about the right issues.. This isn't a debate about if they did or dodn't have weapons, This is a debate about If the Americans soldiers are murderers.

Rot in hell soldier.





PS why aren't we talking about when Obama is going to fulfill a campaign promise to get out of this stupid war!!!!

bro until you have the balls to do anything besides write some fuckin words on a message words, shut the fuck up. i havent said anything against you before, but for these comments you better fuckin pray i dont ever meet you or you will need fuckin dentures. go and do something about something, anything. until then shut the fuck up.

back on the subject: The U.S. investigation into the attack found that the helicopter gunship's crew mistook the journalists' cameras for weapons while seeking out insurgents who had been firing at American troops in the area.

they had been fired upon by similar looking "civilians" all day up to that point. also, they found aks and rpgs with the dead.

[Steve Graham]

Re: Video-US Apache helicopter killing civilians and journalists

Why didn't the government publish this video if those were weapons and if it was a justified killing?
They knew the video was coming and they did nothing about it? The correct action would have been to publish it first and give evidence to support the pilots action. The guys from Wikileaks have announced that this video was going to be published more than two months ago yet apart from putting pressure on the web site supporters the administration and the pentagon have done nothing to refute their claim.

I can't say that its "clear" from the video that anyone is holding any weapons or that the pilots are under any threat. "One knelt to take a photograph, without wearing any vest or other apparel indicating he was a reporter. From the Apache, the camera was mistaken for an RPG launcher"

from the time article

because the public doesnt need to know EVERY LITTLE THING THAT HAPPENS, this is war for fucks sake not a goddam football game