Gay Marriage Rights

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  • cosmo
    Gold Gabber
    • Jun 2004
    • 583

    Gay Marriage Rights

    Gay Marriage 'Rights' By: Thomas Sowell

    In all the states where gay marriage was on the ballot this year, the voters voted against it -- as they should have.

    Of all the phony arguments for gay marriage, the phoniest is the argument that it is a matter of equal rights. Marriage is not a right extended to individuals by the government. It is a restriction on the rights they already have.

    People who are simply living together can make whatever arrangements they want, whether they are heterosexual or homosexual. They can divide up their worldly belongings 50-50 or 90-10 or whatever other way they want. They can make their union temporary or permanent or subject to cancellation at any time. Marriage is a restriction. If my wife buys an automobile with her own money, under California marriage laws I automatically own half of it, whether or not my name is on the title. Whether that law is good, bad, or indifferent, it is a limitation of our freedom to arrange such things as we ourselves might choose. This is just one of many decisions that marriage laws take out of our hands.

    Oliver Wendell Holmes said that the life of the law is not logic but experience. Marriage laws have evolved through centuries of experience with couples of opposite sexes -- and the children that result from such unions. Society asserts its stake in the decisions made by restricting the couples' options. Society has no such stake in the outcome of a union between two people of the same sex. Transferring all those laws to same-sex couples would make no more sense than transferring the rules of baseball to football.

    Why then do gay activists want their options restricted by marriage laws, when they can make their own contracts with their own provisions and hold whatever kinds of ceremony they want to celebrate it? The issue is not individual rights. What the activists are seeking is official social approval of their lifestyle. But this is the antithesis of equal rights.

    If you have a right to someone else's approval, then they do not have a right to their own opinions and values. You cannot say that what "consenting adults" do in private is nobody else's business and then turn around and say that others are bound to put their seal of approval on it. The rhetoric of "equal rights" has become the road to special privilege for all sorts of groups, so perhaps it was inevitable that gay activists would take that road as well. It has worked. They have already succeeded in getting far more government money for AIDS than for other diseases that kill far more people.

    The time is long overdue to stop word games about equal rights from leading to special privileges -- for anybody -- and gay marriage is as good an issue on which to do so as anything else. Incidentally, it is not even clear how many homosexuals actually want marriage, even though gay activists are pushing it. What the activists really want is the stamp of acceptance on homosexuality, as a means of spreading that lifestyle, which has become a death style in the era of AIDS.

    They have already succeeded to a remarkable degree in our public schools, where so-called "AIDS education" or other pious titles are put on programs that promote homosexuality. In some cases, gay activists actually come to the schools, not only to promote homosexuality as an idea but even to pass out the addresses of local gay hangouts to the kids. There is no limit to what people will do if you let them get away with it. That our schools, which are painfully failing to educate our children to the standards in other countries, have time for promoting homosexuality is truly staggering.

    Every special interest group has an incentive to take something away from society as a whole. Some will be content just to siphon off a share of the taxpayers' money for themselves. Others, however, want to dismantle a part of the structure of values that make a society viable. They may not want to bring down the whole structure, just get rid of the part that cramps their style. But when innumerable groups start dismantling pieces of the structure that they don't like, we can be headed for the kinds of social collapses seen both in history and in other parts of the world in our own times.

    ?2004 Creators Syndicate, Inc.
  • Yao
    DUDERZ get a life!!!
    • Jun 2004
    • 8167

    #2
    Every special interest group has an incentive to take something away from society as a whole. Some will be content just to siphon off a share of the taxpayers' money for themselves. Others, however, want to dismantle a part of the structure of values that make a society viable. They may not want to bring down the whole structure, just get rid of the part that cramps their style. But when innumerable groups start dismantling pieces of the structure that they don't like, we can be headed for the kinds of social collapses seen both in history and in other parts of the world in our own times.
    Don't you think he's overreacting a little bit when he talks about dismantling pieces of a structure?

    I agree on the point that sometimes gay activists are emphasizing their presence a little too much, but this guy is on the edge of xenophobia here, though he doesn't really look religious to me.
    I don't see the taking away part here, they just want to be part of something already available to the larger part of the people, and it's not even gonna cost money. This is a moral issue, it's the exclusiveness of marriage that is at stake here.

    I also don't see how AIDS education promotes homosexuality, just by explaining some things about it. Knowledge about something doesn't automatically mean you embrace it. Too many blunt assumptions in here, sorry.
    Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

    There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

    Comment

    • cosmo
      Gold Gabber
      • Jun 2004
      • 583

      #3
      Re: Gay Marriage Rights

      Don't you think he's overreacting a little bit when he talks about dismantling pieces of a structure?
      No, not at all. Societies that have been left in ruins in the past, after growing and prospering through the ages, were crippled by groups seeking equality through results. Not the actual 'level playing field' process.

      I agree on the point that sometimes gay activists are emphasizing their presence a little too much, but this guy is on the edge of xenophobia here, though he doesn't really look religious to me.
      Xenophobic? Wow, that's a complete distortion of where he is going with this. He doesn't dislike people who think or act different than him, he just doesn't want 'splinter groups' that have an agenda to take every single differential trait of humanity that is not mentioned in law, and make the government recognize them.



      Read the whole thing. He describes the aspects of what is going on.

      To include "freedom" in the very definition of democracy is to define a process not by its actual characteristics as a process but by its hope for results. This is not only intellectually invalid, it is, in practical terms, blinding oneself in advance to some of the unwanted consequences of the process.

      I don't see the taking away part here, they just want to be part of something already available to the larger part of the people, and it's not even gonna cost money. This is a moral issue, it's the exclusiveness of marriage that is at stake here.
      You give rights to different groups, other groups will ask for the same. It would never end. The degrees of freedom that exist in other parts of life will give way to the achievements of other areas. Do you know how many characteristics throughout society could be labeled, recognized and sanctioned by the government?

      I also don't see how AIDS education promotes homosexuality, just by explaining some things about it. Knowledge about something doesn't automatically mean you embrace it. Too many blunt assumptions in here, sorry.
      Aids education isn't supposed to promote homosexuality, but the educational programs here are. Activists travel from school to school to preach to the children about homosexuality. This is nothing new actually.

      Just as Sowell mentioned, the activists today are seeking societies approval, more than they are 'gay marriage'.

      Comment

      • davetlv
        Platinum Poster
        • Jun 2004
        • 1205

        #4
        Re: Gay Marriage Rights

        Originally posted by cosmo
        You give rights to different groups, other groups will ask for the same. It would never end. The degrees of freedom that exist in other parts of life will give way to the achievements of other areas. Do you know how many characteristics throughout society could be labeled, recognized and sanctioned by the government?
        The bottom line my friend is this. . . as a gay man i pay my taxes to local and national government just like everyone else does. My hard earned taxes should be used to the benefit of all members of society as seen fit by what ever government is in power. However, where i get really pissed off is when said government takes that money out of my pocket and continues to discriminate against me.

        As a gay man not being able to get married, whilst my straight mates can is discrimination. (Actually Cosmo personally i dont approve of marriage but i support the cause of my fellow lesbian sisters and gay brothers in this fight.)

        Now, marriage is one of two things, a religious institution and an institution sanctioned by the state. I can't argue with the religious on whether i should have the right to get married or not - i learnt long ago that its a losing battle. However, when my hard earned taxes are used to prop up state sanctioned marriage i think its only fair that i should, if i wanted to, be able to marry.

        Now, obviously there are many people who disapprove of this, so here's a solution. When the state stops sanctioning and legitamising heterosexual marriage then i will stop my demands for lesbians and gay men to be allowed to marry. One way or another we should all be treated equally by the state, which we all equally pay for!

        Just some ramblings of a drunk!

        Happy New Year matey!

        Comment

        • Yao
          DUDERZ get a life!!!
          • Jun 2004
          • 8167

          #5
          Very well spoken my drunk friend! Cheers!

          Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

          There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

          Comment

          • cosmo
            Gold Gabber
            • Jun 2004
            • 583

            #6
            Re: Gay Marriage Rights

            Originally posted by davetlv
            Originally posted by cosmo
            You give rights to different groups, other groups will ask for the same. It would never end. The degrees of freedom that exist in other parts of life will give way to the achievements of other areas. Do you know how many characteristics throughout society could be labeled, recognized and sanctioned by the government?
            The bottom line my friend is this. . . as a gay man i pay my taxes to local and national government just like everyone else does. My hard earned taxes should be used to the benefit of all members of society as seen fit by what ever government is in power. However, where i get really pissed off is when said government takes that money out of my pocket and continues to discriminate against me.

            As a gay man not being able to get married, whilst my straight mates can is discrimination. (Actually Cosmo personally i dont approve of marriage but i support the cause of my fellow lesbian sisters and gay brothers in this fight.)

            Now, marriage is one of two things, a religious institution and an institution sanctioned by the state. I can't argue with the religious on whether i should have the right to get married or not - i learnt long ago that its a losing battle. However, when my hard earned taxes are used to prop up state sanctioned marriage i think its only fair that i should, if i wanted to, be able to marry.

            Now, obviously there are many people who disapprove of this, so here's a solution. When the state stops sanctioning and legitamising heterosexual marriage then i will stop my demands for lesbians and gay men to be allowed to marry. One way or another we should all be treated equally by the state, which we all equally pay for!

            Just some ramblings of a drunk!

            Happy New Year matey!
            Let's have the government sanction every single group that wants to get married!! Sounds good my friend!! We can add them into the tax code, as to where everyone gets benifits, and our system inevitably would collapse.

            That's the only reason that I can think of why other groups want their 'justice'.

            If not, I guess they do want societies approval. Why do other groups want the government to sanction them so bad?

            Who knows.

            I'm hung over. Happy new year!!

            Comment

            • Yao
              DUDERZ get a life!!!
              • Jun 2004
              • 8167

              #7
              Problem here is you are involving 'other' unidentified groups in this discussion, while we are discussing one group only.
              Second of all, no matter which way I look at it, I think the only thing getting hurt is the ego of a lot of very religious people. If you say the US is a truly free country, then gay people should have the right to marry, just like those opposed groups have the right to do their thing.

              I really can't see one group of people getting physically or economically disadvantaged by a decision in favour of gay marriage rights, and if that is not the case I think they should have that right. Maybe they want social approval really bad, but who are we dony them that? Because if we do, we are denying people the same rights as we have. And that my friend, is not something I expect in a country where everyone is supposed to be free...

              Nobody is out for a system collapse, that is a ridiculous thought, and I'm hoping you just said that because you were hungover :wink:
              Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

              There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

              Comment

              • cosmo
                Gold Gabber
                • Jun 2004
                • 583

                #8
                Originally posted by Yao
                Problem here is you are involving 'other' unidentified groups in this discussion, while we are discussing one group only.
                Second of all, no matter which way I look at it, I think the only thing getting hurt is the ego of a lot of very religious people. If you say the US is a truly free country, then gay people should have the right to marry, just like those opposed groups have the right to do their thing.

                I really can't see one group of people getting physically or economically disadvantaged by a decision in favour of gay marriage rights, and if that is not the case I think they should have that right. Maybe they want social approval really bad, but who are we dony them that? Because if we do, we are denying people the same rights as we have. And that my friend, is not something I expect in a country where everyone is supposed to be free...

                Nobody is out for a system collapse, that is a ridiculous thought, and I'm hoping you just said that because you were hungover :wink:

                You're speaking in a tone that is somewhat based on anarchy. What exactly is freedom? And who should be able to do what? Just because you have a very small amount of people (4-5%), doesn't necessarily mean that you have to change the law based on their opinion, or their lifestyle. There are many groups out there that make up 2-5% of the population that have a certain vision, that think the government should recognize their goals.

                I understand that the US doesn't want gay marriage passed. If we passed it in the legislature, so be it!! That would be great. That would mean the majority agrees. But apparently, it does not.

                If a group, say, 7% of the population believe that a grown adult should be able to marry a 10 year old girl or boy, or of the same sex, and had activists involved in trying to promote their lifestyle, should they be given these rights, to be recognized by the government to make their lifestyle, worthy of acceptance?

                I know the two lifestyles shouldn't be thrown together as the same thing, but I'm using it as an example. A small minority trying to gain recognition.

                What is freedom? And how far should you take it?

                Comment

                • Yao
                  DUDERZ get a life!!!
                  • Jun 2004
                  • 8167

                  #9
                  I think morally the line between freedom and anarchy is hard to determine, but isn't that why we have laws, to make that line as visible as possible to the people?
                  Those laws apply to each and every individual in a country, at least that is how it is supposed to be, not? But still the Amish and Quakers don't pay taxes and are pretty much left alone by the government.

                  The difference I see is that Gay marriage rights that don't disadvantage any individual are denied, while it is approved of that those two groups of people, no matter how small they are, are granted exceptions which are to their benefit but to the loss of the community. Rule of law? OK: Quakers and Amish pay taxes like every other citizen, Gay people can marry, like every other citizen. Don't forget, it is the exception in the law that gay people cannot marry, not the standard. Because if law/constitution was consequently applied on every individual, they would have the same rights.

                  Making the equation with pedophiles is not really appliccable here I think, we're talking about two adults well capable of making their own decisions here.
                  Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

                  There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

                  Comment

                  • cosmo
                    Gold Gabber
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 583

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Yao
                    I think morally the line between freedom and anarchy is hard to determine, but isn't that why we have laws, to make that line as visible as possible to the people?
                    Those laws apply to each and every individual in a country, at least that is how it is supposed to be, not? But still the Amish and Quakers don't pay taxes and are pretty much left alone by the government.

                    The difference I see is that Gay marriage rights that don't disadvantage any individual are denied, while it is approved of that those two groups of people, no matter how small they are, are granted exceptions which are to their benefit but to the loss of the community. Rule of law? OK: Quakers and Amish pay taxes like every other citizen, Gay people can marry, like every other citizen. Don't forget, it is the exception in the law that gay people cannot marry, not the standard. Because if law/constitution was consequently applied on every individual, they would have the same rights.

                    Making the equation with pedophiles is not really appliccable here I think, we're talking about two adults well capable of making their own decisions here.


                    What, children aren't capable of making their own decicions? Why not? There are some out there that think they are, esp when it comes to abortion, and keeping it from their parents.

                    Comment

                    • Yao
                      DUDERZ get a life!!!
                      • Jun 2004
                      • 8167

                      #11
                      I was more seeing it from the other side: adults do have a psychological advantage over children, and physically it is virtually impossile for a child to resist.

                      And children are to a certain extent capable of making their own decisions, but no, I don't they are totally capable of doing that. But we're going off topic here, I think....
                      Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

                      There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

                      Comment

                      • cosmo
                        Gold Gabber
                        • Jun 2004
                        • 583

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Yao
                        I was more seeing it from the other side: adults do have a psychological advantage over children, and physically it is virtually impossile for a child to resist.

                        And children are to a certain extent capable of making their own decisions, but no, I don't they are totally capable of doing that. But we're going off topic here, I think....
                        A special intrest group is a special intrest group. :?

                        A huge number of gay people here in America don't even care if gay marriage legislation is written. They are happy the way they are living as of now.

                        I will see if I can track down the story that goes in depth on the topic.

                        Comment

                        • Yao
                          DUDERZ get a life!!!
                          • Jun 2004
                          • 8167

                          #13
                          Cool, thanx.

                          But when speaking of special interest groups, I think the equation with Quakers and Amish is a better one, when looking at it from a judicial angle. Now I don't study law, but what I said is something that should be known to everyone I think.

                          Regardless of my personal opinion, when exceptions can me made, it can't be that hard to undo an exception, right?
                          Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

                          There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

                          Comment

                          • cosmo
                            Gold Gabber
                            • Jun 2004
                            • 583

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Yao
                            Cool, thanx.

                            But when speaking of special interest groups, I think the equation with Quakers and Amish is a better one, when looking at it from a judicial angle. Now I don't study law, but what I said is something that should be known to everyone I think.

                            Regardless of my personal opinion, when exceptions can me made, it can't be that hard to undo an exception, right?
                            Quakers, and Amish where? I'm not sure what you're talking about.

                            Comment

                            • Yao
                              DUDERZ get a life!!!
                              • Jun 2004
                              • 8167

                              #15
                              Uhh...in America...

                              Deeply religious groups, that have been discharged of the taxes every other individual in the US pays to the government. The Amish still live like it's the colonial period, they reject the use of any modern piece of equipment or tool.

                              The point was: an exception can be made to these people, but it's not okay for gay people to be taken into the law regarding marriage? That is removing the exceptional status of the group imo.
                              Blowkick visual & graphic design - No Civilization. Now With Broadband.

                              There are but three true sports -- bullfighting, mountain climbing, and motor-racing. The rest are merely games. -Hemingway

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