This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Let me pose another hypothetical: IF, say, the country of mexico was annexed by arizona and therefore this very law we're discussing was the law of the land all the way down to guatemala and belize, would this alleged problem still stand? I'm pointing out that, along that border, the suspicion of illegal entry would NOT be based on skin color whatsoever, because invariably, they all have, for lack of proper nomenclature, dark skin. Imagine if that cartoon posted above was sketched on the southern border of mexico.

The issue people are taking with this law is that there is the notion that since brown people are illegally entering a country that is viewed as 'white' (even though people that look white are minorities in arizona). So, to me, calling this law 'racist' invariably begins with the projection of one's racism. Arizona should not be handicapped from acting in accordance with federal laws simply because Mexicans happen to be of darker skin pigmentation.

(and let's be real here, mexicans only make up 60% or so of illegal entry on that largely unguarded border. What of all the other south americans from other countries who have managed to escape the very harsh penalties for illegally entering mexico?)

On account of this, I ask again, what OTHER indicia is there that a person is illegally present on american soil? Does one see them waving signs that say 'i'm here illegally'? Do they head over to the local police department and fess up? Perhaps they have business cards saying "resident of non-american country" which they hand out. Or, for the purposes of Arizona's unfortunate problem, can one at least make a base assumption that those entering arizona illegally by crossing our national borders are not black, white, or asian?

But being 'brown' as it has been described, does not, alone, rise to the level of suspicion needed to investigate. There must be more, and that has been, so I've read, articulated in the guidelines for officers - the state will not pursue ANY charge based solely on the color of one's skin. And I don't think it's necessary to enumerate factors that would render the perception that a person is not here lawfully.

As I have said already, absent a law like this, de facto amnesty is pretty much the only result.

[toasty]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

I'm not in the camp that thinks that the law was actually intended to be racist, I just think it's really poorly worded and gives police that happen to be racist or who think of constitutional protections as an impediment to them doing their job cover to pretty much stop anyone. In that part of the country, how many US Citizens are going to get stopped on account of simply having darker skin?

I'm all for tighter borders and am in favor of better immigration laws, but we have to continue to respect the 4th amendment. This law in effect codifies a new, more lenient basis for finding reasonable suspicion to stop someone, regardless of whether or not they are ever charged with a crime.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

I see what you're saying. I do. I think I can argue both sides fairly well. It seems to me that I take the slightly opposing side. That instead of this being 'poorly' worded, it in fact is worded quite appropriately but could have, to alleviate fears, added that this law could not be a basis for raising a non-encounter to a mere encounter. But I have every reason to believe that this slight adjustment would not quiet down the hysterically MAD people out there calling this "nazism" "like the gestapo" "racist" "bigoted" ad nauseum.


I've been representing indigent defendants in trial court for several months now. I know the position they're coming from. I honestly do feel for those who have a fear that they're going to be randomly stopped for being brown. But I think those fears are misguided. Allow me to explain.

The topic of 'racist cops' has come up more than once, and I think it is unfounded. First, racist cops were racist before this law, so this law ultimately changes nothing from their position: they'll continue to survey people based on race. Nothing short of firing all present LEO's in Arizona and replacing them with in all-hispanic police force would convince people that 'racism' wouldn't be a factor here, and even then, I'm pretty sure there still would be vocal contrarians. (But let's even address that hypothetical: would having an all-hispanic police force, just as I alluded to in my above hypothetical, eliminate the problems of this statute?) So, racist cops will be racist cops. that's just a fact of life.

But do we really have racist cops? People seem to have the belief that there's a racist cop on every other street corner waiting to demonstrate his latest impression of Bull Conner. Nothing that I have read so far seems indicate this, or even anything that could amount to SOME being racist. There have been several reports where police chiefs and sheriffs have come out saying that they would not pursue (actively or otherwise) this law. And I suspect, save for Sherriff Joe, there's going to be a large number of officers who won't even touch this law. Remember what happened to Mark Furhman? Better, law enforcement works best where there is mutual trust between the officers and the community. So the whole notion of 'racist' cops from a quantitative or qualitative perspective seems to be unfounded or at least exaggerated. Then add to the fact that there may very well be LEO's who are even SYMPATHETIC to illegal immigrants (or at least those who are here working for the man and not importing violence, kidnappings, drugs, etc...).

So what do we have left? A few cops, acting out of line, hating on 'brown people'. Not half, not a third, not even a quarter. And probably not even 10%. Will they happen to be stopping hispanics who don't look illegal every day? Again, I think not. Mexico, for what it's worth, is more violent than Iraq right now. There is violence flooding the southern border states that target americans. And even americans are being targeted in Mexico. There is significant violence related to the trafficking of both drugs and of human beings. There are kidnappings (I believe Phoenix led the nation in kidnappings for the last three years). There is a lot of crime going down around that area. That means, at least to me, that they're going to be busying themselves with 1) controlling crime corridors, 2) involving themselves in prosecuting that crime (witnesses, investigations, etc...), and 3) general police work at the office. What time they do have will certainly not be involved in camping out at a Home Depot parking lot.

Let's assume for the moment that this law is unconstitutional (whether that is the case we won't know for a year or two). What has been the immediate effect? Mexico has already issued warnings for those thinking about entering Arizona (which is, I think, hypocritical given the documented allegations that the Mexican government is sponsoring and/or directly funding assistance to those trying to enter this country illegally). Further, there has already been some minimal indication that illegals in arizona are either getting out of AZ, planning to get out of AZ in the near future, and thinking about leaving AZ. And I think as the weeks go on, we'll be hearing more about this development. So this law, I think, can be said to have the practical effect of removing illegal aliens in accordance with federal law with the additional benefit of maintaining the incentive for illegal aliens to never enter mexico and to try California (where they can get public education at 1/3rd the cost to its citizens).

Turning to whether this affords a more 'lenient' basis to the 4th Amendment, I don't know if I disagree or agree with that, but I think I know what you're basis is. In contemplation of that, does the 4th Amendment protect illegal aliens? I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but don't quote me on that. For a moment, let's assume it does: if an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person IS illegal, then that person is going to be deported. If an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person actually can prove lawful citizenship or immigration status, what is the result? Suppression and ultimately the charge will be dropped (assuming no other crime is involved). And that is the protection the 4th amendment affords to citizens. And in problematic cases, citizens have the recourse of filing Sec. 1983 charges against the officer/department (yet another incentive to cautiously enter the realm of executing this law on Arizona soil).

And so where do concerns REALLY rise? Where the small number of 'racist' cops meet up with those who do not possess identification on themselves, where no other crime has been committed, and where the person does not speak any english, etc...but who are, in actuality, lawfully present persons. I'm not sure of the probability that this scenario would occur, and i'm not saying it won't happen, but imho, 'very little' says it best.



All this aside, I'm seriously interested in what other people have to say. My statements may be misguided, misapplied, whatever. I think it's a fascinating issue to address, so i hope this doesn't end with toasty and I discussing it back and forth.

over and out!

88M


edit; suspicion of illegal entry reminds me of the phrase, "I know it when I see it".

[toasty]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Don't have time to respond fully, but briefly:

But do we really have racist cops? People seem to have the belief that there's a racist cop on every other street corner waiting to demonstrate his latest impression of Bull Conner. Nothing that I have read so far seems indicate this, or even anything that could amount to SOME being racist.

I don't know about Arizona, but here in St. Louis, I'm unhappy to report that racism in the police department is alive and well. For reasons I won't bore you with, I'm acquainted with a large number of STL police officers, and if they're any indication, racism in the PD is a real phenomenon. I don't know how that translates into action, if at all, but suffice it to say that the N word flies around pretty freely for it to just be one or two bad apples.

The point about this not being anything new, however, is well-taken.

Turning to whether this affords a more 'lenient' basis to the 4th Amendment, I don't know if I disagree or agree with that, but I think I know what you're basis is. In contemplation of that, does the 4th Amendment protect illegal aliens? I'm pretty sure it doesn't, but don't quote me on that. For a moment, let's assume it does: if an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person IS illegal, then that person is going to be deported. If an officer stops a person and detains him on suspicion for being illegal, and the person actually can prove lawful citizenship or immigration status, what is the result? Suppression and ultimately the charge will be dropped (assuming no other crime is involved). And that is the protection the 4th amendment affords to citizens. And in problematic cases, citizens have the recourse of filing Sec. 1983 charges against the officer/department (yet another incentive to cautiously enter the realm of executing this law on Arizona soil).

You're leaving out a significant result, and that is the change in the psyche, mistrust of the police, wedge that forms in the community, etc. that happens when you're constantly being stopped and asked for ID by the police when the white folks running around aren't having the same issue. As you mentioned earlier in your post, "law enforcement works best where there is mutual trust between the officers and the community" and this sort of thing isn't likely to facilitate that trust. Would you want for the police to have the right to stop you, for no reason at all, and be able to detain you unless you showed them ID? That would get real old, real quick.

The problem with suppression of evidence as a remedy is that it rings pretty hollow when you're not doing anything wrong in the first place. "Great, the evidence that they didn't find, of the crime I'm not committing, isn't going to be used against me. That makes the hour or two I spent in the pokey and the humiliation I suffered when I was hauled away in a cop car because I forgot my wallet when I walked to the corner store and couldn't prove I was a citizen totally worth it."

I'm not sure the 1983 remedy is that much better. The existence of this law would provide them qualified immunity from civil liability anyway, because they'd be acting pursuant to an act of the legislature.

[floridaorange]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

whoa whoa whoa gtfo on the learn'ed lawyer - higher education - talk... let's keep things simple and conspiratory. AND for heavens sake, where are the interweb links to backup these accusations.

Trying to make a point... and in no way being serious.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

You want links? I bill for that.

[floridaorange]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

It's certainly interesting to hear you and Toasty flesh out (no pun intended) the details of this new law.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Runningman. Where are you dood? I want to hear your thoughts on REAL ID as it pertains to this battle.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

it's all beginning to make sense...........























































































......

[toasty]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^^lol!!!

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Here's something I had not previously contemplated:

-If an AZ cop pulls over a car which happens to contain illegal aliens, that illegal alien, knowing there's a damn good chance they're going to get deported, is more likely to use violence against the officer to escape the impending arrest and susbequent deportation.

Just wait till an increasing number of officers get shot/stabbed while making traffic stops.

[floridaorange]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^mmm I dunno about that, these are just normal hard working Mexicans with families most of them... not criminals and not looking to cause trouble. I doubt they will be viewing cops or border patrol officers any differently than they already do.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

i guess the violent drug trade is propped up by those hard-working, normal illegal immigrants just wanting to send a few billion down to mexico.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/04/30/arizona.deputy.shot/index.html

edit: sod that. just because they're normal, hardworking whatever, doesn't mean you can just waltz into any damn country one pleases. to even say it's ok is to spit in the face of all the immigrants who have gone through the naturalization process.

on a related point, i would submit that by giving illegal aliens carte blanche to do as they wish when they come into this country results in the non-inclination to assimilate into our country. I don't think I can put it into appropriate words, but those who earn something (like citizenship) tack to it a high value....because they've worked towards it, and therefore it is connected to their self-esteem. contariwise, those who are simply handed things without having to work for it do not have that connection, do not have that respect or value of that thing they have obtained.

I'm not sure if i can better explain it at this time of the morning, but hit me up later if you want clarification.

[Cj Tari]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

arent you a smart fella.


so you are basically telling me that the drug cartels are run by illegal immigrants?? srsly??

and also, illegal immigrants have been pulled over for years and years now, ive yet to see violence been used by those same illegals, oh but wait, the cop abuses over those same illegal immigrants keeps on escalating.


you see when you keep generalizing about shit you dont know you keep making yourself look like a moron, i advise you look harder for links, because as youre previous link stated, on which i doubt you read, you should follow the advise of this gentleman:

"Frankly this is just a very horrible story, but we should not generalize," Alfonso Aguilar, former chief of the U.S. Citizenship Office, told CNN's Rick Sanchez when news of Friday's shooting broke. "We should focus on the criminality of the drug traffickers ... not scapegoat undocumented immigrants who do not pose any threat to society."

the more morons like you who keep saying that illegal immigration is directly associated to drug trafficking, then the more abuses we are going to see.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

ah my bad. I guess they all just left their wallets at home.