This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^what your're basically saying is that this law doesn't change anything that's already on the books. Further, Federal law also requires non-citizens to have their visa or alien documents on their person.Simply stated, Arizona has made the federal crime a state crime. If being in the country illegal is a crime, and 'reasonable suspicion" is the standard by which every crime on our books can be investigated, why does it seem we need a special standard for criminal immigration?

Question: if the federal government refuses to get off its ass and do anything about the immigration problem, and this law is unconstitutional, what would you propose to be the most effective means to 1) identify those who are here illegally and 2) have them deported as soon as possible? Anyone who possesses and presents any state DL, a green card, visa, whatever, is clear.

I've thought about this for all of 3 minutes, but I'm not sure how else Arizona would set out to handle this problem, absent a "come admit you're here illegally" day at the local precincts.

Even still, does not the pertinent provision require the police to double-check the immigration status of the person anyways? It's almost like there's an additional safety net to protect those who might otherwise run into difficulties?

[Cj Tari]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

the huge difference is that they are giving the cops the power to practically stop who ever they see fitting and putting them in jail as well.

obviously you not being hispanic or anything close to one, dont care, i my self, i do care, im a hispanic, i already put up with a lot of shit from racist cops, who in any opportunity they have they pull you over and start questioning your citizenship. stupid laws like these will only give them more power, now you cannot tell them to fuck off because if they see fit, they can say oh well, he seemed reasonably suspicious to me, his visa card was reasonably suspicious to me, so after a couple of hours in jail and his suspiciousness being wrong he can just say, oh well im sorry, but you seemed resonably suspicious to me.

im a born us citizen with a hispanic heritage, i pay taxes just like any other race in this country, i fear that a law like this one will only make it just imposible for someone like me to live in a place like Arizona, how many times do you think i would get pulled over driving around Phoenix for being reasonably suspicious?? This is Arizona we are talking about, theire immigration problem is basically with Mexicans and latin american crossing over, so, do you think theyll be stoping Asian people? or white People??

as for what would i do?? i trully dont know, im not a politician, nor someone who is interested in them, so i cant really answer that question, i really dont know if there is a real answer to immigration. But when people come up with laws like these that wont achieve anything and will only create more and more caos, then yeah, im against them.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

you already put up with shit from racist cops? How is this going to change at all, then? Invalidate the law, still put up with racist cops.

And the more I think about it, the more I think there really is no other way to figure out who is, you know, here illegally and who is not. Why is it wrong for the police to ask for identification in a zone experiencing high degrees of illegal immigration?

In terms of adducing who is and who is not here illegally, beyond the scope of already supplied identification, there is probably a decent degree of certainty who is here illegal and who is not. I'm pretty sure that the average person of Arizona could spot illegal immigrants with a high degree certainty at a half mile of distance.

[Cj Tari]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

are you kidding me?? do i have to explain this with apples and oranges??

like you mentioned, the "asking for id" method does not work, its been tried for many many years, and yet, its not effective. Also, if youve read anything about this new law, the problem is not about asking for id's, the problem resides on how much power are you giving these cops, that is the main issue, how many times are hispanics going to be incarcerated just because they were hispanics? this law is similar to the patriot act, where you can detain any suspect for indefinite time as long as you label him as a terrorist suspect. In this law, the context is pretty much similar, the cop has the power to detain ANYONE who he thinks is suspicious of being illegal immigrant.

i ask the question again, do you think many white people are going to be detained? asians?? black people?? i bet they wont.

like i mentioned in my previous post, i do not know the answer to the immigration problem in the US, i trully think its a really complicated matter but again, you are not solving such problem by rounding up hoards of Mexicans who you do not have to be sure if they are illegal or not to detain them, you only have to be "suspicious".

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

All that is required is a proper ID brah. Clearly illegals are not going to have such documentation (although I"ll cede that the counterfeit ID market is going to boom down that way). The fact is, there is no other way to resolve this issue. This law protects lawfully present citizens and immigrants. It balances out this protection with the overwhelming need to remove several hundred thousand (and growing) illegal immigrants. There are inumerable safeguards and remedies to already hinder police officers who act against the purpose of this law.

If no reasonable or articulable suspicion can be made that a person is here illegally, where no identification is furnished, and where the federal government makes zero effort to combat illegal immigration, the state of Arizona remains effectively defenseless in what amounts to a proxy invasion by Mexico.

The legislature could very well have said that suspicion alone would suffice to detain a person who is believed to be here illegally. This would have most certainly empowered the state to combat the problem. However, the legislature clearly added the clause for identification in order to prevent lawful citizens from being impermissibly detained by the state.

Had this been washington state in a situation where canadians were constantly entering its domain illegally, and the federal government did not a damn thing about it, and there were serious problems that arose consistent with illegal canadian immigrants, guess what! I would still support the very same law as applied in that state, too! And i'm sure there would be some Canadian members here who would rant and rave about how this will enable racist cops to incarcerate canadians for the fact that they are canadians. Those who would call this law racist on such a basis can presumably be determined to care not about the laws of this country, that the laws are to be followed, and that illegal immigration (while 'a complicated matter') should be permitted until 'we think of something better'.

I'm all ears for an alternative course, but I again suggest that there's no other way to accomplish this.

This aside, what then when we all have to carry national identification cards (which are functionally no different than any other visa, state ID, etc..)? Will that be satisfactory to ask for ID and detain those who do not possess them under suspicion they are not here lawfully?

Hopefully we never come to a point where Canadians also thumb their noses at our laws, too.

[Cj Tari]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

so, you think the cops are not going to take advantage of a law like this? so you think theres not going to be any abuse of power toward the hispanic comunity?? also, arizona citizens have the power to sue the city if they feel that the cops are not doing theyre job, i mean c'mon, this shit is just amazing.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-april-26-2010/law---border

i know a lot of you dont really care for jon stewart but he puts it in a really clear manner.

[floridaorange]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

If a car with illegal immigrants is driving down the road, or walking down the street, and a cop drives by, the MAJORITY (not all) but the majority of them will in fact act suspiciously.

Until you see a border patrol agent drive through a well-known illegal immigrant apartment complex personally, you won't have any idea what am explaining.

If a cop in some way assaults a legal immigrant in Arizona, you can bet they will be sued btw.

I'm not saying this law is perfect, I am only making connections with experiences I've had... Not sure Jon Stewart or the other talking heads have personally seen situations like these with their own eyes...

[Steve Graham]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

wtf is BRAH?

[toasty]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Had this been washington state in a situation where canadians were constantly entering its domain illegally, and the federal government did not a damn thing about it, and there were serious problems that arose consistent with illegal canadian immigrants, guess what! I would still support the very same law as applied in that state, too! And i'm sure there would be some Canadian members here who would rant and rave about how this will enable racist cops to incarcerate canadians for the fact that they are canadians. Those who would call this law racist on such a basis can presumably be determined to care not about the laws of this country, that the laws are to be followed, and that illegal immigration (while 'a complicated matter') should be permitted until 'we think of something better'.

The problem isn't that it infringes upon the rights of Canadians or Americans that are here illegally, the problem is that it infringes upon the rights of otherwise law-abiding US citizens who "look" Mexican (or Canadian, whatever that means) in the judgment of the police.

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^ is that determination not founded on first, a lawful contact with the person, and 2) the inability to provide any identification? "Looking" 'mexican' only congeals after these two events.

Better, what of the requirement that Arizonan's be required to carry on them identification? Lack of identification on a person being investigated for a crime, would, in my impression, enable the officer to already detain the individual until such information can be adduced.

A nullification of this provision I think would result in de facto amnesty.

[toasty]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^ is that determination not founded on first, a lawful contact with the person, and 2) the inability to provide any identification? "Looking" 'mexican' only congeals after these two events.

That's not how I read it, no. Here's the critical provision:

11-1051(B: FOR ANY LAWFUL CONTACT MADE BY A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE WHERE REASONABLE SUSPICION EXISTS THAT THE PERSON IS AN ALIEN WHO IS UNLAWFULLY PRESENT IN THE UNITED STATES, A REASONABLE ATTEMPT SHALL BE MADE, WHEN PRACTICABLE, TO DETERMINE THE IMMIGRATION STATUS OF THE PERSON. THE PERSON'S IMMIGRATION STATUS SHALL BE VERIFIED WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PURSUANT TO 8 UNITED STATES CODE SECTION 1373(c).

http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf

As I read this, one of the primary problems is that, given the fact that it is itself a crime to be in this country illegally, the language of the bill becomes circular and effectively permits a stop (i.e., lawful contact) on the basis that the person may be an illegal alien. The end result is a concern that anyone that "looks Mexican" can be stopped for that reason alone -- at least that's how I read it.

[Steve Graham]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

it's almost as if they're being told to "assume" illegal until proven other wise

[clintlove]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

edit (nevermind I'm not getting into this)

[88Mariner]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

Except not.

Perhaps we could simply have the officers ask them if they have health insurance before any other questions.

[toasty]

Re: This Arizona immigration law really PISSES ME OFF

^Look, I know you're going to be a practicing lawyer soon enough and therefore have training with statutory construction, etc. With that background, I would think you'd have to at least appreciate the reason that people find the language of the statute troubling. I mean, you may not agree with the construction, but you've got to at least recognize why it's an issue for people, right?