Spain Approves Gay Marriage

[cosmo]

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

This seems to imply a responsibility to have children. What if kids aren't a part of the equation? I'll be getting married myself in September. My wife and I might have a child, we might not. If we do have a kid, it will be because we want to, not because we are duty-bound because we got married.

Happiness is a subjective thing, and everyone is entitled to certain inalienable rights, including "the pursuit of happiness." As long as the pursuit of that happiness doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I say go for it. I fail to understand how a gay person getting married is selfish.

The gay 'lifestyle' is being selfish, regarding child-rearing. That was the point of my post. What about the kids?

Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?

In regards to child-rearing, of course. I thought I had made that clear, of course you didn't catch that.

[Civic_Zen]

But hey...I didn't choose my parents either, did I? I mean, this still implies there's something fundamentally wrong with having two gay people as your parents. This is placing the problem with the gay parents, while imo the problem lies in society not accepting this. If it were generally accepted, would the child have any problems other than the usual?

This is what they call combatting the symptoms, not the disease.

See, but there is a huge difference. From a natural stand point, your parents created you. If they gave birth to you naturally, then that is the natural order of things. They gave you life, they gave a part of themselves to make you. It all becomes quite natural. From a scientific standpoint (I want to make sure I make myself clear, I am a scientist, not a fundamentalist) 2 men can't have a kid. And I believe there is a reason for that, from the natural order of life. If two men could naturally have a child, then it would relate to your analogy. The fact is, that they are entirely dissimilar, and thus your comparisson is utterly mute.

Most humans have the natural instinct to realize that if 2 men in nature can't have a kid, then its unnatural for them to raise one. This makes it quite simple to understand that my feelings are probably just natural instinct. Human's still sleep, not because they really need 8 hours, but because its in our DNA to do so. Thats how we survived the predators of the late prehistoric era and became what we are today. Science has proven that humans no longer need wisdom teeth, because we don't tear into raw flesh, and haven't for 100s of years. We use tools to eat, thus we are evolving to where its natural to be born without wisdom teeth. The number of examples I can give are endless, two men raising a child is unnatural. I'm sorry to those of you on this board that are gay, or just feel differently. But this is not merely my opinion, there is fact in what I am saying.

Who cares, as long as they take good care of me, and none of my dads is acting real queer in public, like Big Gay Al from Southpark

Why then would it matter if they were really queer in public?? What you have said here makes no sense, you basically contradicted yourself. You don't care, but yet you do. Unless that was just a joke, and it wouldn't bother you at all to wonder the malls as a small child in tow of your two dads who dressed you up that morning.

[Yao]

you may have to add some stuff, I edited my answer...

As for being gay not being natural: it is in fact recorded among animals by scientists, so that is a non-argument as far as I'm concerned. The question still is...why? Some believe it is a mechanism of nature to avoid overpopulation, and even when you apply this to the human race, this doesn't seem so illogical. We are too many, destroying our habitat, though most people will see it differently.

But hey, to each his/her own. Be it gay or not.

[toasty]

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?

In regards to child-rearing, of course. I thought I had made that clear, of course you didn't catch that.

Actually, I did catch that as to the second point. I don't find there to be anything about a gay person as compared to a straight person that makes them less loving, nuturing, able to provide guidance and teaching, etc., or anything else that is involved in the parenting process.

I am cognizant of the problems that children may experience as it relates to other kids and having to put up with some teasing or worse. I had thought that it would be better now than in years past, but that evidently isn't the case, per a post by thesightless earlier today, which is unfortunate. Candidly, that's probably the most valid reason I've heard for being apprehensive of allowing gay families to adopt. With that said:

1. It is not as if kids with two straight parents are immune from catching hell from other kids for any of a host of reasons. Kids are cruel, and will latch onto whatever they can to tease one another.

2. There have been a lot of unpleasant bridges that we've had to cross through our nation's history, and yet we have done so and are a stronger nation because of it. What if we were still sending our kids to segregated schools because we were afraid that kids were not going to accept one another back in the 60's? It takes time, of course, but it is something that has to happen to move forward.

[Civic_Zen]

But hey, to each his/her own. Be it gay or not.

I don't have anything against gay people, I just think its questionable when or if they raise children. Obviously children at the age they are adapted wouldn't know if they would care or not, that is the innocence (wonderful isn't it) of a child. So it can be argued if its up to the state to intervene or not. Its just my personal stance, but one that is quite logical.

[Civic_Zen]

I would sooner think it's the other way round...your friend is not homophobic because his dad is gay I think, this has more to do that he lost his dad to 'gayness'. His reaction is pretty normal.
If you've had two caring and loving fathers, who have raised you to be a good human being, how could you hate them? Or at the least be negatively affected? That is a contradictio in terminis...a good experience causing a negative ressponse.

Since this is all new, I shall double post.

I don't know if I would change because of it, or resent them or their life style more because of it. Like I said, that is only a hypothesis, one based on all the facts that are in my power to use. The only way to know is to invent a time machine, go back to my birth and be raised by two men.

The fact is, and you said it yourself. It is BEYOND your power to control the slight disgust, or revulsion that comes into your heart, and your mind when you see two guys kissing. Now you admitted this, now imagine your parents kissing, and replacing your mom with another guy. Wouldn't it be even worse because they are your parents?? I see my parents kiss and a part of me doesn't want to see that, but at the same time it warms my heart to know they have been married for 25 years now and still kiss each other. I hope I will be so lucky. But I know for a fact that if my parents were two guys, I wouldn't feel that warming sensation, and would most likely be disgusted by the scene. And can certainly not look at it like, "oh I hope I'm that lucky some day".

And then there is my other belief. That men could never really love another man that way, and I have facts to back it up. I've known enough gay men, this dad of my friends included, who are down right permiscuous. They don't stay with the same guy for 1 year, much less 25. I would see my child hood as more of a hazy wondering. My "dads" would all have new bfs all the time. So imagine that, your dads fighting one day, and the next your watching him make out with a new guy. And since you visit your other dad, on the weekends, its even worse. Maybe he is even more kinky and one night you wake up to some sort of horrifying orgy. I mean seriously, what are the chances of a gay couple staying married, or even staying together. Is it just my experiences that have tought me this, or what??

At least with a man and a women, when they get divorced and you walk in on your mom getting rocked by another guy, it may repulse you, you may hate him. But I think the level of hatred that can be garnered from such an event becomes ten fold with men because its instinctive to be repulsed by such behaviour. I could seriously see myself becoming enraged by this, to what end I don't know. I could go on about this for ever, so I will stop.

[ichrang]

one more thing, on a more personal note, and i even find it sad for myself, is that i don't think, at least at this point in time with the social climates, that gay couples should be allowed to adopt children, and i say this only b/c i went to school with a kid who had 2 dads and god he was picked on so bad. its tough on the kid. they deserve a chance to at least have a healthy social life and develope the social skills. i mean i admit i very well could be wrong, but i saw this for a long time, almost 12 years actually, and that kid grew up being an outcast b/c his dad was gay.

You think that growing up an orfan with 0 parents is better than having the emotional and financial support from 2 parents??? even if they are the same sex, i would choose the second.

[toasty]

And then there is my other belief. That men could never really love another man that way, and I have facts to back it up. I've known enough gay men, this dad of my friends included, who are down right permiscuous. They don't stay with the same guy for 1 year, much less 25. I would see my child hood as more of a hazy wondering. My "dads" would all have new bfs all the time. So imagine that, your dads fighting one day, and the next your watching him make out with a new guy. And since you visit your other dad, on the weekends, its even worse. Maybe he is even more kinky and one night you wake up to some sort of horrifying orgy. I mean seriously, what are the chances of a gay couple staying married, or even staying together. Is it just my experiences that have tought me this, or what??

Don't forget that when it comes to adopting children, adoption agencies don't just hand those little folks out willy nilly. If you're the type of person that likes to go through sexual partners at rapidfire pace, you're probably going to have a tough time convincing an adoption agency to fork over a kid to you anyway, whether you are gay or straight.

I had thought this was intrinsic in the debate, but perhaps it needs to be stated explicitly: I had assumed that we are talking about people who would pass through the screening process and be decent parents. The situation you're describing doesn't sound particularly stable and would, I think, disqualify someone.

[Civic_Zen]

You make a great point toasty, as always. But my reasoning for not wanting two dads isn't based solely on that issue. Its all encompassing, and that is merely a part of it.

Besides, records can be falsified. How is it that the adoption agency is going to know if the couple is lying or not? Unless they had their names together on an Apartment rent cheque, or the mortgage loan, or what have you. Or if the person had lots of partners, only if he/she had lots of apartments/housing with them, could you prove it either way. And if the two men want a child, and think they are ready for one, they will say whatever they have to say for it to happen.

I'm not entirely up to scuff on the process, I know what the couple goes through it they are hetero sexual, not if they were homo sexual.

My only point is that I think its questionable, quite questionable.

[toasty]

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

On a related note, what do you that oppose gay people adopting children think of gay people who have natural children? I have two friends that are in this situation, both roughly my age: one had her mom come out after she was born, the other is a mom and came out after giving birth. Both were married at the time of birth, and both are the result of natural conception and birth. Both seem relatively normal and happy to me.

I would point out that this would seem to moot the argument that a gay person can't raise a child because it's not natural, in light of the fact that these are blood relations.

How about people that are bisexual? Suppose a guy has romantic relationships with both men and women, and ultimately commits himself to one person, a woman, and marries her. Can he raise a child without ruffling anyone's feathers?

Just trying to figure out where the line is drawn, and why...

[Civic_Zen]

I was only drawing the line for myself. Which is why I specifically said 2 men, and not just gays in general. Personally, I don't see a bi-man committing to a women and having that relationship last. Like I said though, its probably just my experience but people that are that sexually active, stay that way through out their lives. So any relationship will be open like swingers, or the like. But that is really beside any of the points I was trying to make.

Personally, I've never known any bi men that weren't just gay. IMO, any guy that would do another guy and enjoy it throughly is gay. They may like women too, sure, women are obviously much more beautiful and attractive then a man, even for some gay men. Thats why women being attracted to women is so much more natural to me. And common. A girl kissing a girl isn't disgusting to anyone, even the most conservative girls I know don't really have a problem with it. Its like comparing apples to oranges, but that is just me.

[cosmo]

Actually, I did catch that as to the second point. I don't find there to be anything about a gay person as compared to a straight person that makes them less loving, nuturing, able to provide guidance and teaching, etc., or anything else that is involved in the parenting process.

I am cognizant of the problems that children may experience as it relates to other kids and having to put up with some teasing or worse. I had thought that it would be better now than in years past, but that evidently isn't the case, per a post by thesightless earlier today, which is unfortunate. Candidly, that's probably the most valid reason I've heard for being apprehensive of allowing gay families to adopt. With that said:

1. It is not as if kids with two straight parents are immune from catching hell from other kids for any of a host of reasons. Kids are cruel, and will latch onto whatever they can to tease one another.

2. There have been a lot of unpleasant bridges that we've had to cross through our nation's history, and yet we have done so and are a stronger nation because of it. What if we were still sending our kids to segregated schools because we were afraid that kids were not going to accept one another back in the 60's? It takes time, of course, but it is something that has to happen to move forward

You're getting the two(segregation & gay marriage) completely mixed up. At the time, of course, blacks weren't allowed to do certain things, I will give you that. I agree that blacks were treated unfairly, BUT, that is wholly different than letting gay people marry, for the fact that gay marriage rights do not exist at this time, in contrast to the 50's and 60's, when blacks were allowed by law to attend the same school as whites, they were just intimidated.

Also, my view-point is not set at parallels with that of thesightless'. He is talking about kids getting picked on at school. I am talking about kids living through a period of time where s/he is being raised by two people of the same sex, one of them not being the blood relative/mother/father of that individual. The individual that will be needed to teach and nurture that child during certain periods of their upbringing.

[Yao]

The fact is, and you said it yourself. It is BEYOND your power to control the slight disgust, or revulsion that comes into your heart, and your mind when you see two guys kissing. Now you admitted this, now imagine your parents kissing, and replacing your mom with another guy. Wouldn't it be even worse because they are your parents??

No, I don't think so. If I were raised with two men as my parents, I would be accustomed to that. Just like I am accustomed to see a man and a woman kissing, which doesn't need to take place in public either. I was btw referring to something like a french kiss, not just a normal kiss on he lips.
But then again, I don't need to see a boy and a girl making out like that on the street. :wink:

[Civic_Zen]

I think your wrong, like I said. Its instinctive. Different philosphies would say different things, like one would say your surroundings effect your personality. Another would say your born the way you are. The fact is that both are true. Yes, your surroundings do dictate a lot, but some things are just instinctive. I've never met another man that wasn't some what repulsed by the act of men kissing, who wasn't gay or questionable himself.

I am speaking from the experience of myself and everyone around me, and because of the music we all listen to, I think its safe to assume that we on this board all have some experience with this issue.

But I have no way to prove my point, nor do you. Until someone on this board says he was raised by two men his whole life, and proves one of us right. And then its still questionable, and could be a complete fluke

[thefncrow]

I went digging for this article to go back and edit a previous post with the info, but since I don't expect people to re-read posts they've already read looking for edits, here it is again.

http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html

The APA has concluded that, essentially, children raised by homosexual parents do not seem to differ from children raised by heterosexual parents. Those of you arguing that gay parents can harm children's development would be well served to read this study.