Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[davetlv]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Seems Amnesty International don't share your view on the legality of the blockade. You guys use paint ball guns at peaceful protests

Just to be clear here, when you say Amnesty doesnt share your view, do you mean mine or my country's?

Yes paint ball guns, or would you prefer real live ammunition gets used. Israel also has developed something called Skunk for demos. This is a highly smelly water canon which makes those hit by it stink for weeks - less lethal that live ammunition.

[chunky]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Yes paint ball guns, or would you prefer real live ammunition gets used. Israel also has developed something called Skunk for demos. This is a highly smelly water canon which makes those hit by it stink for weeks - less lethal that live ammunition.

A peacefull protest isnt a peasefull protest if you have to shoot people with paint balls and hose them down. I was atually refuring to Isreal not you personaly. Sorry for the confusion.

[davetlv]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

A peacefull protest isnt a peasefull protest if you have to shoot people with paint balls and hose them down. I was atually refuring to Isreal not you personaly. Sorry for the confusion.

Not sure where you are from Chunky but I've viewed images from various demos around the globe where police and military are armed to the hilt with live ammunition, this is not the case in Israel. Whilst I am sure there are those who would decry Israel even using non lethal weapons at demos the other alternative is something I can never support.

I am putting together some stuff which I hope might balance out somewhat the perception that the organisers of this flotilla wanted anything but a peaceful journey - I'm sure those with open minds will review ALL information out there before digging their heals in.

[88Mariner]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

They used paintball guns at the outset? Clear to me they never intended to engage in any gunfire at all - in fact, they tried to avoid it from what it looks like. Good to know useful idiots are proclaiming they intended to kill everyone aboard.

[davetlv]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

1. Was the intention of this flotilla to bring in aid to Gaza or to attack Israel?

Considering that with 6 ships in the flotilla they only managed to transport some 10,000 tonnes of aid (approx two thirds of the amount that is transported into Gaza weekly by the Israelis) I'm of the belief that the organisers of this flotilla (Turkish 'charity' IHH - more on them later) were seeking nothing more than confrontation - especially when one takes into account the offers to dock in Ashdod and transport the goods from there were rejected a number of times by the organisers.

Even prior to leaving Turkey some might have suspected that their intentions were not pure. Here is some video footage of some members of the group just before they left Turkey.

The footage is from Al-Jazeera - note the chant "[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!" this refers to the name of a Jewish village which was defeated by Mohamed in 628 killing many and bringing an end to a Jewish presence in Arabia.

Note also the woman at the end who claims the goals of the flotilla were "one of two happy endings: either Martyrdom or reaching Gaza."

So taking the video evidence at hand from Al-Jazeera and what we know took place the other morning one must question whether ALL participants were peaceful protesters.

Should anyone feel that the translation of the video is not quite right please feel free to offer another translation.

2. Was the flotilla on a humanitarian mission?

Had this been a truly humanitarian mission then the organisers would have accepted the request by the family of Gilad Shalit, who has been held by Hamas in Gaza without access to the Red Cross and in breach of all regulations regarding prisoners of war, to request of Hamas that allow access to Gilad by said agencies. The organisers refused - had they accepted however they would have found a huge amount of support by Israelis.

3, Who organised the flotilla.

This time the organisers seem to be a 'charity' called IHH. They have been deemed by a number of countries to be nothing more than Jihadist group. The Danish Institute for International Studies has plenty to say about IHH - click on link to read report, IHH stuff from page 10.

These are some of my initial thoughts and stuff I have found out since this happened. Let me make it perfectly clear I do not believe that EVERYONE aboard the ships were looking for a fight with Israel, but I do think a vocal armed minority were.

My understanding is that all the commotion happened on just one ship.

I have to run out for a while but will post more a bit later.

[ace_dl]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

I just heard on the news that aboard the Turkish ship there might be secret agents with axes and knives ... Not sure if this has been confirmed yet. (Wtf they were thinking anyway ... Putting in jeopardy the whole mission?)
On the other hand, i believe the rest of the ships' intentions was to provide Humanitarian Aid

[xellsys]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

israel's official statement on their government's website: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...1-May-2010.htm

[88Mariner]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

I just heard on the news that aboard the Turkish ship there might be secret agents with axes and knives ... Not sure if this has been confirmed yet. (Wtf they were thinking anyway ... Putting in jeopardy the whole mission?)
On the other hand, i believe the rest of the ships' intentions was to provide Humanitarian Aid

The amount of aid on all six ships combined amounts to 1/4th the aid that goes to gaza via israel every single day.

(btw, the aid package did go through to gaza sometime midday gmt).

[ace_dl]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

The amount of aid on all six ships combined amounts to 1/4th the aid that goes to gaza via israel every single day.
...

What is that supposed to mean? That they shouldn't go in the first place?

Israel's military have already acknowledged big mistakes on yesterday's operation

[88Mariner]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

What is that supposed to mean? That they shouldn't go in the first place?

Israel's military have already acknowledged big mistakes on yesterday's operation

it means that 1) this was a sham humanitarian mission that was designed to provoke israel from its very inception, 2) aid is going to gaza every day and that amount far surpasses anything that could have been done through slow-moving ships, 3) the israeli's promised (and in fact kept the promise) to transport the aid on the ships through the traditional route on land whereas five of the ships agreed to this while the sixth one tried to run the blockade (as it had, so it seems, intended to do from the outset).

The big mistake is that they didn't use more effective crowd-dispersing methods (of course, had the used tear gas, almost every news agency on this planet would have blamed them for using chemical weapons against peaceful 'humanitarians'. The only time any violence occurred was on a ship that didn't acquiesce to the inspection of cargo (not an unreasonable request, nor one that is novel in context).

[bobjuice]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Right so now that I have quoted international law with you you change track to firstly attacking me and then posting lies. I dont know what access you have to news where you are but northing I have read or heard has the Israelis dropping down from helicopters armed with sub-machine guns. Maybe you have more recent news, so a link to that would be grand, otherwise its just a lie, isn't it.

According to reports Israelis landed on the main boat armed with nothing more that paint ball guns, something they use when peaceful protests are expected during anti-fence demos, and holstered hand guns - not sub machine guns. Considering that every time a member of this supposed humainitarian group spoke prior to the 'mission' leaving dock these people claimed to be prepared to peacefully block the israelis, they sprouted that under no circumstance would they use force, therefore the Israelis were not sporting sub or other types of machine guns.

But I guess you're not interested in facts are you. Yes we all know it was a stupid attempt by the Israelis, and yes anyone with a working brain cell could hvae told them that some elements of people on board, and i believe it to be only some, were preparing themselves for a fight, so different tactics might have been considered, but seriously DIDI do you have to resort to either personal attacks or lies in this discussion.

I know the are some people on this board who will always jump at attacking Israel and thats fair enough but do you and others here really have to fabricate things as well?

twat

to quote your goodself

[davetlv]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

twat

to quote your goodself

Way to go on original thought there.

[DIDI]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Right so now that I have quoted international law with you you change track to firstly attacking me and then posting lies. I dont know what access you have to news where you are but northing I have read or heard has the Israelis dropping down from helicopters armed with sub-machine guns. Maybe you have more recent news, so a link to that would be grand, otherwise its just a lie, isn't it.

According to reports Israelis landed on the main boat armed with nothing more that paint ball guns, something they use when peaceful protests are expected during anti-fence demos, and holstered hand guns - not sub machine guns. Considering that every time a member of this supposed humainitarian group spoke prior to the 'mission' leaving dock these people claimed to be prepared to peacefully block the israelis, they sprouted that under no circumstance would they use force, therefore the Israelis were not sporting sub or other types of machine guns.

But I guess you're not interested in facts are you. Yes we all know it was a stupid attempt by the Israelis, and yes anyone with a working brain cell could hvae told them that some elements of people on board, and I believe it to be only some, were preparing themselves for a fight, so different tactics might have been considered, but seriously DIDI do you have to resort to either personal attacks or lies in this discussion.

I know the are some people on this board who will always jump at attacking Israel and thats fair enough but do you and others here really have to fabricate things as well?

You don't have access to television . ???? The helicopter was all over ours. As were the soldiers with guns that killed people !! Machine guns were definitely reported here. Oh, I see you put two statements together so if there is doubt about one it negates the other. Very good !!

I don't have to lie. You, I call as I see. I make no apologies for that. If you see what I have said as personally attacking you, rather than as commentary, that probably says more about your attitudes than mine. Or is that deflection ;(

Shame you didn't touch on the other issues I brought up. Apparently they want our journos to sign a paper that says they entered Israel illegally ??

[DIDI]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

israel's official statement on their government's website: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...1-May-2010.htm

That makes them look even worse ! The weapons , they relied on being able to take guns from Israelis ?? The pile of supposed weapons were knives and the type of thing you would find on any ship. I have those knives in my kitchen !!. I saw one that could possibly be described as a weapon only ! This I one of the reasons I am so angry , we are being treated like idiots , expected to swallow this hook line and sinker.

The one thing that seems to have gotten lost here in the argument about semantics is that people died from very real bullets and many, many more were injured.

There is no doubt that this was a political gesture to show Israel in it's true light and that people were prepared to lose their lives , and some did , to do this .

Very sadly, it succeeded in it's aim spectacularly .

[88Mariner]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

That makes them look even worse ! The weapons , they relied on being able to take guns from Israelis ?? The pile of supposed weapons were knives and the type of thing you would find on any ship. I have those knives in my kitchen !!. I saw one that could possibly be described as a weapon only ! This I one of the reasons I am so angry , we are being treated like idiots , expected to swallow this hook line and sinker.

The one thing that seems to have gotten lost here in the argument about semantics is that people died from very real bullets and many, many more were injured.

There is no doubt that this was a political gesture to show Israel in it's true light and that people were prepared to lose their lives , and some did , to do this .

Very sadly, it succeeded in it's aim spectacularly .

You are being treated like idiots. Useful idiots.