Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

agreed.. What we have now is a Fascist Kakistocrasy


Wisconsin is brewing, ripe with anger.

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

what is scary about this is that it is Wisconsin.. they are white people that don't fuck around. when white people get pissed people die

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

Also changed would be mandatory union fees extracted from workers. Union leadership currently uses these funds to back political candidates who do their bidding. That usually means candidates with a distinctly leftist outlook.

http://www.examiner.com/ocean-county-conservative-in-newark/wisconsin-unrest-will-impact-nj-and-other-states#ixzz1EKPGRqSe

So its bad that they lobby...hmmm..funny how that one works.

LOL fucking joke

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

The very nature of many public services — such as policing the streets and putting out fires — gives government a monopoly or near monopoly; striking public employees could therefore hold the public hostage. As long-time New York Times labor reporter A. H. Raskin wrote in 1968: "The community cannot tolerate the notion that it is defenseless at the hands of organized workers to whom it has entrusted responsibility for essential services. You can argue, even validly, that private sector unions are acceptable. But there is no valid argument that public sector employes should ever have monopoly power against state citizens.

To tolerate or recognize any combination of civil service employees of the government as a labor organization or union is not only incompatible with the spirit of democracy, but inconsistent with every principle upon which our government is founded. Nothing is more dangerous to public welfare than to admit that hired servants of the State can dictate to the government the hours, the wages and conditions under which they will carry on essential services vital to the welfare, safety, and security of the citizen. To admit as true that government employees have power to halt or check the functions of government unless their demands are satisfied, is to transfer to them all legislative, executive and judicial power. Nothing would be more ridiculous.

Right now, the taxpayers are literally, LITERALLY, paying these teachers to abstain from their duties and protest a terribly necessary move to reign in the very serious financial woes of that state.

Indeed, like New Jersey, if they can't pass this bill, 10-12,000 public positions will be terminated. You can't pay for what you can't afford. Either they accept the fact that they can't extort money on account of their monopoly power, or they get tossed to the streets.

Hell, I think the most responsible thing to do here is hunt down all the teachers who called in 'sick' but were out protesting, and give them the pink slip first. These teachers, more than others, deserve the boot.

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.

If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now.
Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.

If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now.
Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.

How hilarious.

Let me help you:

FDR, an ally of private-sector unionism, stood against unions for government workers - in fact he said as much in 1937: "the process of collective bargaining . . .cannot be transplanted into public service."

You know WHY he believed this: Because, a public employee strike "manifests nothing less than an intent on their part to obstruct the operations of government until their demands are satisfied. Such action looking toward the paralysis of government by those who have sworn to support it is unthinkable and intolerable." And FDR was not the sole leftie who embraced such sentiments.

And the funny thing about your quip about firemen and policemen: they TOO have such power! What do you think happened with the airtraffic controllers who walked out? This is not going to extremes - it's going to the very heart of the matter!

And here - the unions are supporting the teachers LEAVING their jobs. Would you NOT call that criminal? Oh it might not be 'vital' but then, who are you to say that any government employee can merely walk out? Would it be acceptable for state senators and congressmen to form a union and HOLDOUT until they all got to increase their pay whenever they want? Because that's not much different than what's happening here. The teachers unions are actually saying, "we have a right to demand whatever we want, we have a right that our demands are actually met, and if they are not met, we hold the right to walk out of our jobs whenever we choose."






So here we return to your teleological difficulties. "It'll work! trust me! I can envision it! disregard what's actually going on....be pure to the theory!"

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

Mate I said it once...and I say it again. Issues.

have fun

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

Mate I said it once...and I say it again. Issues.

have fun

Indeed. It's all about the issues. And the facts, which you continue to ignore. And, not surprisingly, Obama has taken the same route: defending government employees for being able to hold monopoly power against the taxpayers.

If that's not a sign of pure idiocy on Obama's behalf, I don't know what else would so clearly and transparently qualify.

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

so...why would anyone want to be a teacher lets say? You sacrifice your life in essence to get the necessary degrees to become a teacher and then you work for a non negotiable salary?? Why would ANYONE want to be a policeman, fireman, teacher etc...How would you be able to guarantee that you have a high quality of employees? (not that they do that now) It makes little sense...and I don't think i have ever heard of any union going against popular support i.e. if the public opinion is not with them they usually don't strike or take action.

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

so...why would anyone want to be a teacher lets say? You sacrifice your life in essence to get the necessary degrees to become a teacher and then you work for a non negotiable salary?? Why would ANYONE want to be a policeman, fireman, teacher etc...How would you be able to guarantee that you have a high quality of employees? (not that they do that now) It makes little sense...and I don't think i have ever heard of any union going against popular support i.e. if the public opinion is not with them they usually don't strike or take action.

Why? To help children who can't read good and wanna learn to do other stuff good too.

Is there much negotiation in public sector work? As far as I can tell, there is very very little room for negotiations. Why? Because salaries are based on scales and bands. They are keyed to work experience, education level, specialty, and the type of position applied for.

And even then, why would it take the monopoly on government services to be able to negotiate higher salaries? Are non-union employees incapable of negotiating raises anywhere else in the economy?

It's funny you mention the quality of teachers.

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

Who wouldnt' want to be a teacher.. $75,000 for working 9 months of the year with summers off..

I would have the teachers out picking litter in the local communities the other 3 months to set a good example.

[res0nat0r]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

most teachers in public highschool/middle schools make no where near 75k/year i know for a fact.

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

I disagree to the full extent. You are going into extremes...no one is talking about the fire man not responding to a call or police doing the same we are talking about the right to negotiate your pay, hours etc as a human being without the threat of being fired for even bringing it up.

If the union did something like the above mentioned i.e. stopped providing vital services at a time when it is most needed they should be held criminally responsible. Its as simple as that...if they are unhappy they should bring it up in "peace" time i.e. when their services are not vital...e.g. just like they are doing now.
Again this works for almost every country in the world...not sure why the US seems to have a problem with it.

if it makes any difference, the bill exempts police, firefighters and state troopers. now do you support it?


(no)

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

in canada they do. My sister is an elementary teacher and she is making around $70,000 right now.

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

^ average teacher salary in madison wisconsin is up around 85-90k. holy shiat.

i'm sur it's probably slightly lower (70-80) round the state. that's amazing for 9 months of work imo