President Bush says there was a relationship with...

[FM]

Cheney blames the media for "confusing" everybody...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5233810/

ummmm; yea

[brakada]

Cheney blames the media for "confusing" everybody...

ummmm; yea

who's confusing who, I wonder? I'm confused. :?

[davetlv]

Re: President Bush says there was a relationship with...

Occupying Iraq was more of a strategic
geographical move when it comes to controlling the world.

Agreed. totally. :wink:

Still, I don't see how the war in Iraq fits in with the War on terrorism. Sure, Sadam financed Palestinian terrorists, but then Israel could attack it as a part of a War on terrorism, and not the US.

That's one of the ironies about the war on terror. Israel receives terrorist attacks on a weekly basis and the rest of the world thinks it does not have the right to defend itself. Israel is even condemned for retaliating. However, when America receives one attack, it launches this whole campaign to completely disrupt the Middle East, and it receives SOME support from other nations.

23 years ago Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor and got condemed for it be the 'free' world. Aren't you all happy now that we did.

There is a double standard when it comes to the war on terror. For years Iraq financially supported the families of homicide bombers. Even today Arafat's currupt regime continues to support these families. Iran is actively recruiting bombers to take out Israeli (and US) interests.

When we take action resolution after friggin resolution at the UN General Assembly is passed without condeming the act of homicide attacks. My country has been facing a war on terror since it was founded - with very little support from anyone.

[Galapidate]

Re: President Bush says there was a relationship with...

Occupying Iraq was more of a strategic
geographical move when it comes to controlling the world.

Agreed. totally. :wink:

Still, I don't see how the war in Iraq fits in with the War on terrorism. Sure, Sadam financed Palestinian terrorists, but then Israel could attack it as a part of a War on terrorism, and not the US.

That's one of the ironies about the war on terror. Israel receives terrorist attacks on a weekly basis and the rest of the world thinks it does not have the right to defend itself. Israel is even condemned for retaliating. However, when America receives one attack, it launches this whole campaign to completely disrupt the Middle East, and it receives SOME support from other nations.

23 years ago Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor and got condemed for it be the 'free' world. Aren't you all happy now that we did.

There is a double standard when it comes to the war on terror. For years Iraq financially supported the families of homicide bombers. Even today Arafat's currupt regime continues to support these families. Iran is actively recruiting bombers to take out Israeli (and US) interests.

When we take action resolution after friggin resolution at the UN General Assembly is passed without condeming the act of homicide attacks. My country has been facing a war on terror since it was founded - with very little support from anyone.

I notice your avatar, so you live in Israel. I was considering (since I'm Jewish) to take a trip to Israel sometime in the near future. Is it safe where you are and where are other relatively peaceful areas in Israel right now.

[brakada]

Re: President Bush says there was a relationship with...

I notice your avatar, so you live in Israel. I was considering (since I'm Jewish) to take a trip to Israel sometime in the near future. Is it safe where you are and where are other relatively peaceful areas in Israel right now.

No, buy a helmet, a bulletproof vest and a mini portable armoured vehicle, travel edition TM. :wink: Well it's safe as it has always been, meaning: yes, terrosrist attacks still happen, but not really many tourists are affected by them, unless you would like to tour the new wall, protecting from terrorist attacks... :wink:

As for Palestinian terrorists, it is still hard for me to equate them with international terrorists groups. I regard them more as the IRA of Palestina. If I can remember right, the IRA killed a lot of innocent people, but they were fighting for their "freedom" kind of. But because of huge international support it was never regarded as the cancer of the modern world. It is true, that the political wing of the IRA was a lot more civilised and trustworthy than the Palestinian "leadership" is, but let's hope things will get better in time.

Drop pot, not bombs on the Middle East, and things are without doubt going to get better soon. Peace....

[miks]

Re: President Bush says there was a relationship with...

Occupying Iraq was more of a strategic
geographical move when it comes to controlling the world.

Agreed. totally. :wink:

Still, I don't see how the war in Iraq fits in with the War on terrorism. Sure, Sadam financed Palestinian terrorists, but then Israel could attack it as a part of a War on terrorism, and not the US.

That's one of the ironies about the war on terror. Israel receives terrorist attacks on a weekly basis and the rest of the world thinks it does not have the right to defend itself. Israel is even condemned for retaliating. However, when America receives one attack, it launches this whole campaign to completely disrupt the Middle East, and it receives SOME support from other nations.

23 years ago Israel bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor and got condemed for it be the 'free' world. Aren't you all happy now that we did.

There is a double standard when it comes to the war on terror. For years Iraq financially supported the families of homicide bombers. Even today Arafat's currupt regime continues to support these families. Iran is actively recruiting bombers to take out Israeli (and US) interests.

When we take action resolution after friggin resolution at the UN General Assembly is passed without condeming the act of homicide attacks. My country has been facing a war on terror since it was founded - with very little support from anyone.

I'm surprised that you think that your country (Israel) hasnt received any support from anyone. There is huge list of UN resolutions condemning your country for attacks on Palestinians which have all been vetoed by the US. (being a permenant member and all) Compared to the Palestinians your support base is huge. There are host of multnational organizations who rountinly donate money to your country. Many of these funds are used for millitary and 'defensive' purposes.

What I take from your post is that you wish ISrael should have get the go ahead from the rest of the world to take out the entire Palestinian lands wihout any reprecussions of any kind. Similar to what the US is doing. A bit hard dont you think?? It wont solve any problems dude. The first step is to figure out what makes someone wanna kill themselves. Have you left your home in TLV and ventured far enough to see how the people on the other side of the fence live and how they have been treated by daily incursions into their lands??

[cosmo]

http://www.fas.org/irp/news/1998/11/98110602_nlt.html

4. Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezballah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.

[mylexicon]

What I take from your post is that you wish ISrael should have get the go ahead from the rest of the world to take out the entire Palestinian lands wihout any reprecussions of any kind. Similar to what the US is doing. A bit hard dont you think?? It wont solve any problems dude.

The reason you don't understand what Israel is doing is because you don't
understand the situation. THE LAND DOESN'T BELONG TO PALESTINE. They
are not a sovereign nation; that is what they are trying to become.
Palestinians are killing innocent people every day so they can become a
sovereign nation. Israel isn't stupid enough to hand it over because they
know the attacks won't stop even if Israel turns the land over. Israel is also
smart enough to know if they do turn the land over and it proves once and
for all that Arabs are attacking them only because they hate Israel; the rest
of the world will be too lazy to help them.

Plz, before you make a comment. Take a minute to learn what the situation
is. The only reason people support Palestine is because they have no idea
how the problem started and in many cases they have no idea what the
problem is today. Plus most people are sensationalistic/ emotional idiots.
All they see is a bunch of pathetic weak people getting beat up by a modernized
army; when they situation is actually much more complex. And to make matters worse
the average American idiot sees pictures of Israeli citizens getting blown up
on buses and they think "oh those poor Arabs". And the only reason they
think that is because the average liberal-ass teeny-bopper imbicile thinks
Israelis are white, and they refuse to read the goddam captions.

[miks]

What I take from your post is that you wish ISrael should have get the go ahead from the rest of the world to take out the entire Palestinian lands wihout any reprecussions of any kind. Similar to what the US is doing. A bit hard dont you think?? It wont solve any problems dude.

The reason you don't understand what Israel is doing is because you don't
understand the situation. THE LAND DOESN'T BELONG TO PALESTINE. They
are not a sovereign nation; that is what they are trying to become.
Palestinians are killing innocent people every day so they can become a
sovereign nation. Israel isn't stupid enough to hand it over because they
know the attacks won't stop even if Israel turns the land over. Israel is also
smart enough to know if they do turn the land over and it proves once and
for all that Arabs are attacking them only because they hate Israel; the rest
of the world will be too lazy to help them.

Plz, before you make a comment. Take a minute to learn what the situation
is. The only reason people support Palestine is because they have no idea
how the problem started and in many cases they have no idea what the
problem is today. Plus most people are sensationalistic/ emotional idiots.
All they see is a bunch of pathetic weak people getting beat up by a modernized
army; when they situation is actually much more complex. And to make matters worse
the average American idiot sees pictures of Israeli citizens getting blown up
on buses and they think "oh those poor Arabs". And the only reason they
think that is because the average liberal-ass teeny-bopper imbicile thinks
Israelis are white, and they refuse to read the goddam captions.

Umm dude: First of all I realize this is a very sensitive topic for many people. I appreciate you points and please dont take any of this personally, its just a debate.

Your argument that the lands now occupied by Israel does not belong to the Palestinians. Ummm again very debatable. Most of the Israeli citizans were actually brought in after 1945, (end of WW II) from various parts of Europe. All this culminated in the Israeli war of independence (194 Prior to this time the area was inhabited by Muslims and Jews. Therefere I strongly disagree with your point. Would appreciate it if you would provide some back up to your statement.

After the Yom Kippur War (1967) Israel occupied Sinai (Egypt) the Bolan Heights (Syria) and East Jurusalem (Palestine) The claimed that it was all a part of 'Greater Isreal' So again where does it all end??? All land were returned following talks, however Israeli expansionist ambitions were unveiled.

The entire world sees the poor Arabs being killed by Israeli tanks and the arabs retaliating by blowing themselves up. Thats becasue thats the way it is.... I mean since the intifada started there ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed is somethign close to 10:1. Hey man, if you want to make it a fair fight, how about providing the palestinains with some real fire power????

The right wing neo cons rednecks, associate the Arabs as backward violent indivisuals who 'hate freedom.' They think of the Israeli govt. as being progressive peace lovers who are just like Americans. Give me a break. The rest of the world is against Israel cuz their hardline approach is not the answer, contrary to what you might think.

Plz dont make such sweeping comments that I dont understand the situation.... think i do pretty well, and just because you dont agree with my stance is nothing to do with not knowing facts.

[cosmo]

The Palestinians do not have a history as a culture. They migrated from other Arab states into the region of Israel. The palestinians used the tool of becoming a state as a strategic move.

Back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein. Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people" to oppose Zionism.

Arafat signed the Declaration of Principles on the White House lawn in 1993, he explained his actions on Jordan TV. Here's what he said: "Since we cannot defeat Israel in war, we do this in stages. We take any and every territory that we can of Palestine, and establish a sovereignty there, and we use it as a springboard to take more. When the time comes, we can get the Arab nations to join us for the final blow against Israel."

[Civic_Zen]

The reason you don't understand what Israel is doing is because you don't
understand the situation. THE LAND DOESN'T BELONG TO PALESTINE. They
are not a sovereign nation; that is what they are trying to become.
Palestinians are killing innocent people every day so they can become a
sovereign nation. Israel isn't stupid enough to hand it over because they
know the attacks won't stop even if Israel turns the land over. Israel is also
smart enough to know if they do turn the land over and it proves once and
for all that Arabs are attacking them only because they hate Israel; the rest
of the world will be too lazy to help them.

Plz, before you make a comment. Take a minute to learn what the situation
is. The only reason people support Palestine is because they have no idea
how the problem started and in many cases they have no idea what the
problem is today. Plus most people are sensationalistic/ emotional idiots.
All they see is a bunch of pathetic weak people getting beat up by a modernized
army; when they situation is actually much more complex. And to make matters worse
the average American idiot sees pictures of Israeli citizens getting blown up
on buses and they think "oh those poor Arabs". And the only reason they
think that is because the average liberal-ass teeny-bopper imbicile thinks
Israelis are white, and they refuse to read the goddam captions.

Umm dude: First of all I realize this is a very sensitive topic for many people. I appreciate you points and please dont take any of this personally, its just a debate.

Your argument that the lands now occupied by Israel does not belong to the Palestinians. Ummm again very debatable. Most of the Israeli citizans were actually brought in after 1945, (end of WW II) from various parts of Europe. All this culminated in the Israeli war of independence (194 Prior to this time the area was inhabited by Muslims and Jews. Therefere I strongly disagree with your point. Would appreciate it if you would provide some back up to your statement.

After the Yom Kippur War (1967) Israel occupied Sinai (Egypt) the Bolan Heights (Syria) and East Jurusalem (Palestine) The claimed that it was all a part of 'Greater Isreal' So again where does it all end??? All land were returned following talks, however Israeli expansionist ambitions were unveiled.

The entire world sees the poor Arabs being killed by Israeli tanks and the arabs retaliating by blowing themselves up. Thats becasue thats the way it is.... I mean since the intifada started there ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed is somethign close to 10:1. Hey man, if you want to make it a fair fight, how about providing the palestinains with some real fire power????

The right wing neo cons rednecks, associate the Arabs as backward violent indivisuals who 'hate freedom.' They think of the Israeli govt. as being progressive peace lovers who are just like Americans. Give me a break. The rest of the world is against Israel cuz their hardline approach is not the answer, contrary to what you might think.

Plz dont make such sweeping comments that I dont understand the situation.... think i do pretty well, and just because you dont agree with my stance is nothing to do with not knowing facts.

First. Let me reply to Lexicon's post. Israel would not give up the "promised land" to the palestinians even if they thought it would end the war. The war between the arabs and the jews has been waged even before Christ, and long there after. This is what the war is about, a piece of land that each feel is rightfully their's, given to them by their god. Isreal would not give it up any sooner then the Palestinians would stop fighting for it. Or rather, having their political and religious leaders use propoganda to make their people's believe thats what they are fighting for. Thats really the only problem with your post.

Now as far as Milks post goes, damn, you are exactly what lexicon was talking about. Talking about the 10:1 ratio of arabs dying as opposed to Jews, what about how many Jews have died in the close to 20,000 years they have existed as a people?? That isn't very relevant here though. What is relevant is that Isreal was formed by the UN. All the nations belonging to it then decided that giving Israel to the Jews was the right thing to do. Its not like the US was the only country to initiate that country.

Your talking about how we think the Arabs are a people opposed to freedom, which they are. You talk about how they get rolled over with tanks and yet they have to resort to blowing each other up. Well here is how it really is. Israel is a form of democratic government, any Arab nation is not. Arab leaders use religion to oppress and defile their entire existence. The Arab people would do well to bring down their own government that kills them and makes them believe that they are dying for a cause. They are not, they are pretending to be fighting over a very small piece of land when they are actually just anti-semetic, just as cosmo's post suggests. And will not stop until every Jew in the world is dead, and every westerner that harbours them dies with them.

The terrorists that are blowing themselves up could have tanks too, to roll over Jews with. But they don't have tanks for the same reason why they can't read a book, or watch a movie, or allow their brides to wonder in public with their face shown. They are exactly what you said. They are still living in the middle ages, and their government uses religious propoganda to make sure it stays that way. If these people had any sense of war, or what they are doing don't you think they would realize that 10:1 ratio?? Don't you think they would realize that they can't win a war if they all die out, because at the rate their going, they will all kill themselves.

Once again, they do not realize this because their governments, and religious leaders make everything out to be about one small piece of land when its really nothing more then prejidice.

[davetlv]

Umm dude: First of all I realize this is a very sensitive topic for many people. I appreciate you points and please dont take any of this personally, its just a debate.

Your argument that the lands now occupied by Israel does not belong to the Palestinians. Ummm again very debatable. Most of the Israeli citizans were actually brought in after 1945, (end of WW II) from various parts of Europe. All this culminated in the Israeli war of independence (194 Prior to this time the area was inhabited by Muslims and Jews. Therefere I strongly disagree with your point. Would appreciate it if you would provide some back up to your statement.

After the Yom Kippur War (1967) Israel occupied Sinai (Egypt) the Bolan Heights (Syria) and East Jurusalem (Palestine) The claimed that it was all a part of 'Greater Isreal' So again where does it all end??? All land were returned following talks, however Israeli expansionist ambitions were unveiled.

The entire world sees the poor Arabs being killed by Israeli tanks and the arabs retaliating by blowing themselves up. Thats becasue thats the way it is.... I mean since the intifada started there ratio of Palestinians to Israelis killed is somethign close to 10:1. Hey man, if you want to make it a fair fight, how about providing the palestinains with some real fire power????

The right wing neo cons rednecks, associate the Arabs as backward violent indivisuals who 'hate freedom.' They think of the Israeli govt. as being progressive peace lovers who are just like Americans. Give me a break. The rest of the world is against Israel cuz their hardline approach is not the answer, contrary to what you might think.

Plz dont make such sweeping comments that I dont understand the situation.... think i do pretty well, and just because you dont agree with my stance is nothing to do with not knowing facts.

History 101 now begins. . .

When Jews began to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers in 1882, fewer than 250,000 Arabs lived there, and the majority of them had arrived in recent decades. Palestine was never an exclusively Arab country, although Arabic gradually became the language of most the population after the Muslim invasions of the seventh century. No independent Arab or Palestinian state ever existed in Palestine. When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

In 1920 League of Nations proclaimed that Palestine was to be a homeland for the Jews. Around the same time, Lebanon was made a place for Arab Christians, and Syria, and Iraq were to be homelands for Arab Moslems. In 1922 England [the occupying power in Palestine] gave all of Palestine east of the River Jordan [77% of Palestine] to Arab Moslems, forbidding Jews to live there.

Further UN estimates put the property loses of Jews kicked out of Arab countries after 1948 at 10 times those lost by Palestinian Arabs.


[In World War I] Turkey, with an expansive empire that compassed the Middle East (including Palestine) and North Africa, fought with Germany and the Central Powers against the Allies. At the breaking up of the Turkish Empire by the victorious Allies, both Jews and Arabs requested independent states. The world powers were generous in the extreme to the Arabs by granting them twenty-two independent Arabs states - encompassing 5,414,000 square miles. The Jews asked for less than one percent of that vast territory. The Allies agreed to this request (which included both sides of the Jordan) in the 1917 Balfour Declaration and the 1920 San Remo Conference of World Powers.

For imperialistic interests, however, in 1921 Great Britain reneged on the Balfour Declaration, lopped off 77 percent of the Land promised in the Balfour Declaration and set up the Arab Emirate of Transjordan. Then in 1922 the League of Nations gave Great Britain a Mandate to prepare the remaining 23 percent of Palestine (including Samaria, Judea, Gaza, Golan Heights and Eastern Jerusalem) for a Jewish National Home. But under French pressure, in 1923 the Golan Heights was ceded by the British to the French mandate of Syria.

After the War of Independance Israel actually controlled less land that was promised to it in previous years.

As a result of the six day war in 1967 (the Yom Kippur war took place in 1973) Isreal gained control of the areas now under dispute. The Golan heights (not Bolan - I believe he was a 1960's singer), The West Bank (or Judea and Samaria), East Jerusalem and the Sinai Desert. You claim that all lands were returned after talks miks, the only land returned was Sinai. As for the other areas, Israel annexed the Golan Heights, and yes, occuppied the West Bank and Gaza Strip (which BTW was offered by Begin to Sadat as part of the Sinai settlement but Sadat rejected it).

I'm surprised that you think that your country (Israel) hasnt received any support from anyone. There is huge list of UN resolutions condemning your country for attacks on Palestinians which have all been vetoed by the US. (being a permenant member and all) Compared to the Palestinians your support base is huge. There are host of multnational organizations who rountinly donate money to your country. Many of these funds are used for millitary and 'defensive' purposes.

What I take from your post is that you wish ISrael should have get the go ahead from the rest of the world to take out the entire Palestinian lands wihout any reprecussions of any kind. Similar to what the US is doing. A bit hard dont you think?? It wont solve any problems dude. The first step is to figure out what makes someone wanna kill themselves. Have you left your home in TLV and ventured far enough to see how the people on the other side of the fence live and how they have been treated by daily incursions into their lands??

Within the UN Israel's support lies entirely with the USA - and thank god for that. The reason why the US keeps using its veteo int eh security council is because the resolutions keep condeming Israel whilst ignore the Palestinian terrorists and their actions. They are hardly balanced resolutions. Please remember that there are also a myriad of resolutions from the General Assembly, that the US has no power of veteo over, that condem Israel and ignore the Palestinians.

Do you think we like this situation? Do you think we like to get blown up? Do you think our mothers don't lie awake at night and worry about what might have happened to their children when they fail to come home when they said they would? Listening to you its like we are solely to blame for the situation here.

When you talk of funds coming into this country, dont forget the billions the PA has received to build an infrastructure for the Palaestinian people from the EU and US. Also dont forget about the hundred of millions that have been misappropriated by Arafat and syphoned off into his own private bank accounts to fund terrorism and give his wife an nice life in Paris. (An EU report confirms this).

As for my personal thought on the issue, here goes.

Regardless of what was offered by the League of Nations, the Balfour Decleration and the UN mandate, the situation on the ground today in 2004 is what needs a solution. I personally believe that we should evacuate all israeli citizens from Gaza and the West Bank. I think the PA should have sole control with those areas and an independant Palestinian state should gain formal recognition by the world.

No i haven't venured into the territories for two very good reasons:-

1. I dont think as an Israeli i should be there.

2. As an Israeli, driving an vehicle with an Israeli number plate, i would leave myself open to attack. I like my life, I have no need to try and end it prematurely.

[gokada]

Re: President Bush says there was a relationship with...

Can he just tell us that it was about money and stabilizing the price of oil?

No, because then he wouldn't be re-elected...

Is that why we're paying more for gas now than ever before? You have to remember, the U.S. doesn't control oil..Saudi Arabia is the largest member of OPEC which is the body that controls it and they would never just "give up" their gold mine. The only way the U.S. will control the oil market is when the rest of the world runs out and we start pumping our oil fields. Now, the fact that Bush and Cheney are in the oil industry does bring up questions...in that case I can see that it may be about money..as far as stabilizing the price, obviously that's not it...

Gokada

[mylexicon]

We actually don't import a majority of our oil from OPEC

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

People forget too that we don't buy much oil from Iraq because of our moral
objection to Saddam's rule there. Futhermore, Iraq was sanctioned by the U.N. to produce
a very small amount of oil because of their aggressive behavior towards
Kuwait.

If the U.S. wanted oil from Iraq they didn't have to go to war, they could have
simply lifted the sanctions. Which is why it is ridiculous that people propose
the war on terror is about oil.

And as far a future oil production goes.......the U.S. and Mexico will be ridiculously
wealthy in the next 25-50 years if oil demand stays high. The largest oil
reserves in the world (yet discovered) lie in the Gulf of Mexico, and i do
mean largest We will own this fucking planet and eliminate the
U.S. immigration problems at the same time, which is why every intelligent foreigner is either
out taking underground readings for oil or is hell bent on making sure we
discover alternative fuels.

You think the Prince of Brunei is rich.....just wait until the Chinese economy
reaches 7-8 trillion and Microsoft start drilling for oil Its not about the
environment at all. People have been playing the game of lowering global
oil demand by all means necessary......consequently they believe everything
we do is aimed at fillibustering their efforts.

And you just have to trust me on this Gulf of Mexico oil thing. My roommate's
dad has been involved in the oil industry his entire life. He and a couple
of his best friends started an oil company after they got canned from Coastal.
He has a chart in his home office from 2001. It is a composite map of known
fields and privately commisioned exploratory efforts. His company bought
some information about known inaccessible oil fields and then he went in
on an explatory commision with a bunch of other companies big and small.
The map features green dots/blobs where the oil fields are located. The
map is fucking speckled from the keys to South America. And since its privately
financed and the reserves are in International waters, most of the info is
kept on the hush until exploratory drilling is possible. Amazing stuff imo.

[delirious]

If the U.S. wanted oil from Iraq they didn't have to go to war, they could have simply lifted the sanctions. Which is why it is ridiculous that people propose the war on terror is about oil.

No, they don't just want the "oil from Iraq" but also the contracts for rebuilding and controlling the oil industry. Big difference. Why buy the oil from Saddam when you can take over the country and get other people to buy it from you?

In Cheney's Energy Task Force documents, he plainly stated that the US must control vital energy supplies... even by force. Detailed maps of Iraqi fields and contracts were made. When the rest of the country was being looted, the US protected the Oil Ministry as a main priority. Some soldiers even complained that most of their preparation was for the takeover of oil fields, not rebuilding and policing a country.

However you cut it, oil played a major part in this war.

The oil industry has gone to great lengths to distance itself from any planning related to the potential post-war opening of Iraq's massive fields, now partly in U.S. and British hands. But it is becoming clear that a number of companies played significant advisory roles in military operations taking place on those fields, underscoring an unusual partnership between the military and private companies in the Iraq campaign.

BP PLC employees in Kuwait showed the Royal Engineers and other combat troops how oil fields operate before their assault on South Rumeila, along the Kuwaiti border. Houston fire-fighting firm Boots & Coots International Well Control Inc. helped draw up emergency and contingency plans for securing the field, and private-sector U.S. oil executives, serving as U.S. reserve officers, ran soldiers and combat engineers through fields in West Texas in preparation for the attack. There is no evidence that any of the firms were paid for their oil-field advice, but coalition military engineers considered the advice critical.

"We leveraged the private sector," said Brig. Gen. Robert Crear, commander of the Southwestern Division of the Army Corps of Engineers, which is spearheading reconstruction efforts in Iraq.

http://www.corpwatch.org/article.php?id=11212

Judicial Watch, the public interest group that investigates and prosecutes government corruption and abuse, said today that documents turned over by the Commerce Department, under court order as a result of Judicial Watch?s Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) lawsuit concerning the activities of the Cheney Energy Task Force, contain a map of Iraqi oilfields, pipelines, refineries and terminals, as well as 2 charts detailing Iraqi oil and gas projects, and ?Foreign Suitors for Iraqi Oilfield Contracts.? The documents, which are dated March 2001, are available on the Internet at: www.JudicialWatch.org.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/071703.b_PR.shtml