President Bush says there was a relationship with...

[miks]

[Now as far as Milks post goes, damn, you are exactly what lexicon was talking about. Talking about the 10:1 ratio of arabs dying as opposed to Jews, what about how many Jews have died in the close to 20,000 years they have existed as a people?? That isn't very relevant here though. What is relevant is that Isreal was formed by the UN. All the nations belonging to it then decided that giving Israel to the Jews was the right thing to do. Its not like the US was the only country to initiate that country.

Your talking about how we think the Arabs are a people opposed to freedom, which they are. You talk about how they get rolled over with tanks and yet they have to resort to blowing each other up. Well here is how it really is. Israel is a form of democratic government, any Arab nation is not. Arab leaders use religion to oppress and defile their entire existence. The Arab people would do well to bring down their own government that kills them and makes them believe that they are dying for a cause. They are not, they are pretending to be fighting over a very small piece of land when they are actually just anti-semetic, just as cosmo's post suggests. And will not stop until every Jew in the world is dead, and every westerner that harbours them dies with them.

The terrorists that are blowing themselves up could have tanks too, to roll over Jews with. But they don't have tanks for the same reason why they can't read a book, or watch a movie, or allow their brides to wonder in public with their face shown. They are exactly what you said. They are still living in the middle ages, and their government uses religious propoganda to make sure it stays that way. If these people had any sense of war, or what they are doing don't you think they would realize that 10:1 ratio?? Don't you think they would realize that they can't win a war if they all die out, because at the rate their going, they will all kill themselves.

Once again, they do not realize this because their governments, and religious leaders make everything out to be about one small piece of land when its really nothing more then prejidice.

Sorry to say this dude, but you got a hellava warped view on the Arab world, bordering on extreme prejuidice. I'm real glad there arent any Arabs on this forum, otherwise we may have had a war on our hands. What you havce described is a sterotypical view protrayed by many Western media(especially American ) on the Arab world in general. Conditions which Palestinians live in have casued them become what they are today. A lot of this has to do with their leadership (especially the PA) however the recent Likud goverment hasnt made things much better. I dont know how many Arabs you know, or if you've tried to understand their culture and practices. Anyway you have your view and I have mine. No point discussing it further.

Davetlv, thanks for the history lesson, your historical facts are great, and informative, like your corrections on my post. Could do without the sarcasm, I would exepct you to know about your own country than I would...

Few points. Untill recently I thought that Sharon was fucking megalomaniac. His entire poilcy on the Palestinians were to seek out and destroy. Most attacks were unprovoked and countless homes have been rasied. I wasnt sure how exactly that would provide a peace plan. All he was doing was systematic genocide. Pretty sick stuff man. I felt that all he was doing was attacking the Palestinaains so he could provoke Hamas and other groups to come out. Smart but evil. His recent move to clear out the Gaza Strip has
somewhat redemmed him, however I wonder how effective he will be given the oppostition by his own party. I believe that the UN is trying to condemn Israel as it believes that many of those attacks were unprovoked. Considering the entire world seems to be backing the Palestinians in many cases requires some consideration....

The conditions which the Palestinians live in is awful. Incursions and attacks have only strengtened the powers of certain millitant groups, (Hamas, fatah.... Brigades etc etc ) and only reinforce their extreme point of view. By killing of innocent children you only create more suicide bombers.
Since Sharon has come into power, the situation has just gotten a lot fucking worse....

Agree with your views on creation of the Palestinian state.

Still think you should check out the Palestinian lands. There should be some way or the other.

Your point about Israeli mothers, holds true for Palestinian mothers too. Living in fear is not something mutually exclusive to the Israeli's.

[gokada]

We actually don't import a majority of our oil from OPEC

http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html

People forget too that we don't buy much oil from Iraq because of our moral
objection to Saddam's rule there. Futhermore, Iraq was sanctioned by the U.N. to produce
a very small amount of oil because of their aggressive behavior towards
Kuwait.

If the U.S. wanted oil from Iraq they didn't have to go to war, they could have
simply lifted the sanctions. Which is why it is ridiculous that people propose
the war on terror is about oil.

And as far a future oil production goes.......the U.S. and Mexico will be ridiculously
wealthy in the next 25-50 years if oil demand stays high. The largest oil
reserves in the world (yet discovered) lie in the Gulf of Mexico, and i do
mean largest We will own this fucking planet and eliminate the
U.S. immigration problems at the same time, which is why every intelligent foreigner is either
out taking underground readings for oil or is hell bent on making sure we
discover alternative fuels.

You think the Prince of Brunei is rich.....just wait until the Chinese economy
reaches 7-8 trillion and Microsoft start drilling for oil Its not about the
environment at all. People have been playing the game of lowering global
oil demand by all means necessary......consequently they believe everything
we do is aimed at fillibustering their efforts.

And you just have to trust me on this Gulf of Mexico oil thing. My roommate's
dad has been involved in the oil industry his entire life. He and a couple
of his best friends started an oil company after they got canned from Coastal.
He has a chart in his home office from 2001. It is a composite map of known
fields and privately commisioned exploratory efforts. His company bought
some information about known inaccessible oil fields and then he went in
on an explatory commision with a bunch of other companies big and small.
The map features green dots/blobs where the oil fields are located. The
map is fucking speckled from the keys to South America. And since its privately
financed and the reserves are in International waters, most of the info is
kept on the hush until exploratory drilling is possible. Amazing stuff imo.

I agree with everything you said, but I never said that we import a majority of our oil from OPEC. I was simply stating that OPEC controls the market. Only 4 of the countries (Canada, Mexico, U.K, and Angola) listed in the link you forwarded are not part of OPEC, the rest are...

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/opec.html

...that's 4 out of 11 countries that are not OPEC members. I agree with the fact that prices are high b/c of this:

http://www.eagleforum.org/column/2000/july00/00-07-05.shtml

...so it's also my belief that the war in Iraq is not a war for oil. That's ridiculous. Once again, look at the price now. Why don't people realize that we are at war!!! You can't negotiate with people who kill innocent women and children, and then claim that they're doing God's work. If Kerry were president you know what he'd do? Try to open up a dialogue with these fuckers. Dialogue shmialogue!! Yes, things are fucked up, yes, prison guards acted stupid, yes, the U.N. is caught up in the oil for food scandal (btw, the U.N. isn't worth a shit anyway)...does that mean we cut and run? I think we all know the answer to that. No, Bush isn't a great public speaker and he's rough around the edges, but he's the best man for the most important job at this time. I don't know if he knew about 9/11 beforehand, I doubt it. I think he knew there was a general threat, but he took it about as seriously as the Clinton Adiministration. So if you blame Bush for prior knowledge, you must blame the previous adiministration(s) also.

[gokada]

Sorry Lexicon, I wasn't directing all that other stuff at you..just the OPEC part..the rest was general rambling...

Gokada

[Balanc3]

Yet another piece of history and a blow for the liberals. Looks like Clinton beat Bush to the punch (as if we didn't know that) now why the hell didn't Clinton do anything first if he knew this was such a high level threat.

Clinton first linked al Qaeda to Saddam


By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES


The Clinton administration talked about firm evidence linking Saddam Hussein's regime to Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda network years before President Bush made the same statements.
The issue arose again this month after the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States reported there was no "collaborative relationship" between the old Iraqi regime and bin Laden.
Democrats have cited the staff report to accuse Mr. Bush of making inaccurate statements about a linkage. Commission members, including a Democrat and two Republicans, quickly came to the administration's defense by saying there had been such contacts.
In fact, during President Clinton's eight years in office, there were at least two official pronouncements of an alarming alliance between Baghdad and al Qaeda. One came from William S. Cohen, Mr. Clinton's defense secretary. He cited an al Qaeda-Baghdad link to justify the bombing of a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan.
Mr. Bush cited the linkage, in part, to justify invading Iraq and ousting Saddam. He said he could not take the risk of Iraq's weapons falling into bin Laden's hands.
The other pronouncement is contained in a Justice Department indictment on Nov. 4, 1998, charging bin Laden with murder in the bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa.
The indictment disclosed a close relationship between al Qaeda and Saddam's regime, which included specialists on chemical weapons and all types of bombs, including truck bombs, a favorite weapon of terrorists.
The 1998 indictment said: "Al Qaeda also forged alliances with the National Islamic Front in the Sudan and with the government of Iran and its associated terrorist group Hezbollah for the purpose of working together against their perceived common enemies in the West, particularly the United States. In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the government of Iraq."
Shortly after the embassy bombings, Mr. Clinton ordered air strikes on al Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and on the Shifa pharmaceutical factory in Sudan.
To justify the Sudanese plant as a target, Clinton aides said it was involved in the production of deadly VX nerve gas. Officials further determined that bin Laden owned a stake in the operation and that its manager had traveled to Baghdad to learn bomb-making techniques from Saddam's weapons scientists.
Mr. Cohen elaborated in March in testimony before the September 11 commission.
He testified that "bin Laden had been living [at the plant], that he had, in fact, money that he had put into this military industrial corporation, that the owner of the plant had traveled to Baghdad to meet with the father of the VX program."
He said that if the plant had been allowed to produce VX that was used to kill thousands of Americans, people would have asked him, " 'You had a manager that went to Baghdad; you had Osama bin Laden, who had funded, at least the corporation, and you had traces of [VX precursor] and you did what? And you did nothing?' Is that a responsible activity on the part of the secretary of defense?"