Spain Approves Gay Marriage

[toasty]

^^ That's surprising. I would not have expected that. We're unfortunately further off than I thought, I suppose...

I have to continue to disagree with the idea that marriage began as a religious right. Marriage as an institution existed before the it was recognized as a sacrament by the Jewish texts. If the Jews and Christians are troubled that gays are trying to take advantage of a pre-existing custom that they have adopted into their religion, perhaps they ought to consider coming up with their own, purely religious, covenant that does not carry legal implications.

[thesightless]

marriage devoloped from the idea of partnership. marriage itself did indeed come from the ancient hebrew texts. maybe davetlv could help out with this. but i willl try to look it up after work.

[Yao]

Yeah, it's about time we get that cleared up: is the claim on marriage by religious groups legit?

[davetlv]

Are any claims by religious groups legit?

[Civic_Zen]

What if some gays (undoubtedly) are also Christian or Jewish?? Surely since they believe in the Christian, or Jewish God which is ultimately the same, they should be aloud to wed under their religious beliefs the same as a strait person.

I see both sides of the equation here, but as far as where religion falls into place on either side is irrelevant. Even though gay people being what they are by nature (arguably) is by itself, blasphemy in the eyes of the church, it doesn't mean that a gay person can't worship the "lord" or a God in their own way, and without any of the absolute hypocracy that any religion endows upon its faith. Like saying gay people are the devils work or some BS like that.

Like I said, I can argue both sides, but not because marriage being a religious rite has anything to do with it. That is completely irrelevant in my eyes, and religious people who argue it are merely using it as an excuse. I don't know exactly where I stand on gay marriage, but you know what, I don't really care either way. It may seem selfish, but the reason I am primarily conservative politically is because I only concentrate on things that matter to me, and the people that matter to me. Like lower taxes so I can see more of my hard earned cash, not some jackass who refuses to work. People think your being kind to them, but in reality your only hurting them more, by showing them that they don't have to work or be a part of society. Gay marriage isn't important to me, at all, because I'm not really close to any gay people, and the few that I do know are so damn permiscuous, the idea that they could settle down is perposterous. Stereo type? Maybe, but every gay person I've ever met was about 5x more sexually active then even the most slutty guy I've known. One who would sleep with a different girl usually every week, that same week my gay "acquaintance" would sleep with 2 guys, and then the Bi people are just as bad and sometimes worse. The female bi people I've known any way. But marriage just doesn't last now and days regardless of sexual orientation. Its sad to see what the institution has come to, since it means very little to any one any way, so why should it matter?

Regardless, one thing I don't understand is how most people who oppose gay marriage have reason to do so. Religion and its relevance is negligable. Any other excuse you can use to say they should not be aloud to marry is pretty unsubstantial as well. There are many nuances that make me question the gay society as a whole, and whether or not an adopted child has the right to choose. Its really for another discussion, but I would never want gay parents, and if I was adopted by them I would probably resent them even more and their way of life. But then again who knows, I would have no way of knowing that unless I was raised by 2 guys. I can only say that I am thankful that didn't happen. That is really my main argument against gay's getting married, and you know what, its not relevant either. Because gays will adopt kids any way, whether their married or not.

So in essence, I could come out 100% honestly and say that I might be a little disparriaged by most gay people i've met, and most especially gay men. Mainly because it seems completely unnatural to me, from a scientific stand point, not religious. But I dont see any real argument against why they can't get married.

[Yao]

Hahaha, good question. As a non believer, I'd have to say NO. :wink:

[thesightless]

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

try these links, again, im not jewish, but at least i tried to look it up.

http://marriage.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=marriage&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.umanitoba.ca%2Ffaculties%2Farts%2Fanthropology%2Ftutor%2Fcase_studies%2Fhebrews%2Fmarriage.html

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/09693A.TXT

Leviticus 18:22 from the old testement? i forget. i know it condemns homosexual behaviour.

http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/vismarr/marr1.htm

straight catholic look at it. http://www.stcatherine.org/marriage.html

indian(country, not bow and arrow) view http://members.tripod.com/anantmitha...fMarriage.html

[thesightless]

again, i dont neccessarily agree with it.

[toasty]

This doesn't really answer the question, but it does shed some light on the uncertainty surrounding the issue:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/25/MNGNG57QMP1.DTL

See also:

http://marriage.about.com/cs/generalhistory/a/marriagehistory.htm

[cosmo]

I have gay friends, and I'm okay with it. I don't condemn them, but I do believe that the best way to celebrate life is to have a wife/husband and kids, and to raise your kids the best way you can. I think that the best way to raise kids is to have the mother and father present at all times, inside the home. To express your sexuality to the extent of marrying someone of the same sex, sometimes passes off as being selfish, and experimenting with ones being a little too far.

I mean, what about the kids?

If you want to be gay, then enjoy your life with your partner, but if there are kids involved, I would suggest that the person involved in their gay relationships think twice before exposing their children into that arena. If the father divorces his significant other that has a kid already, and marries into another gay relationship, there are 4 gay individuals I think? If the other family member wants to see the kid of course. That has to be damaging to a child.

If that happens so be it, but I do believe there are better atmospheres to have a child brought up.

Just a thought.

[toasty]

I have gay friends, and I'm okay with it. I don't condemn them, but I do believe that the best way to celebrate life is to have a wife/husband and kids, and to raise your kids the best way you can. I think that the best way to raise kids is to have the mother and father present at all times, inside the home. To express your sexuality to the extent of marrying someone of the same sex, sometimes passes off as being selfish, and experimenting with ones being a little too far.

This seems to imply a responsibility to have children. What if kids aren't a part of the equation? I'll be getting married myself in September. My wife and I might have a child, we might not. If we do have a kid, it will be because we want to, not because we are duty-bound because we got married.

Happiness is a subjective thing, and everyone is entitled to certain inalienable rights, including "the pursuit of happiness." As long as the pursuit of that happiness doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I say go for it. I fail to understand how a gay person getting married is selfish.

If you want to be gay, then enjoy your life with your partner, but if there are kids involved, I would suggest that the person involved in their gay relationships think twice before exposing their children into that arena. If the father divorces his significant other that has a kid already, and marries into another gay relationship, there are 4 gay individuals I think? If the other family member wants to see the kid of course. That has to be damaging to a child.

If that happens so be it, but I do believe there are better atmospheres to have a child brought up.

Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?

[Civic_Zen]

Happiness is a subjective thing, and everyone is entitled to certain inalienable rights, including "the pursuit of happiness." As long as the pursuit of that happiness doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I say go for it.

But see thats just it. At what age do you gain your rights, and at what point do you acknowledge them? Does the kid being adopted have the right to choose his parents? And if so, should he/she be able to express that he would prefer a dad and a mom, versus two dads.

Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?

Not really, but it does leave it open to further discussion. If you had been adopted, would you have wanted to grow up with two fathers?? If given the choice of course.

[rubyraks]

If you had been adopted, would you have wanted to grow up with two fathers?? If given the choice of course.

I don't know, but women are pretty damn hard to understand...may make some things a lot easier. :wink:

[Civic_Zen]

Indeed.

But seriously, it may be that its something wrong with my thought processes, and my logic. And the logic of most of the American public, but the thought of two men together is disheartening, if only a little. Once 2 guys start making out in public is when it becomes a bit more then that, for me. Not entering the range of disgust yet, but I will definetely have the impulse to look away. And having two fathers???

Obviously I have no way to test this hypothosis, but I think I would have grown up quite a bit differently had that been the case. How? I don't know, but I can only assume that it would have a negative effect on me, could even drive me to a life of crime or drug use. Or at the very least cause a further lack of respect for the life style. But then again, maybe things would have been different and I would have excepted it. I only base this analysis on my current personality, and the fact that its quite similar to a friend of mine. Who has a father who divorced his mom later in life because he was gay, its not the same, but he is now more homo phobic then anyone else I know.

[Yao]

But see thats just it. At what age do you gain your rights, and at what point do you acknowledge them? Does the kid being adopted have the right to choose his parents? And if so, should he/she be able to express that he would prefer a dad and a mom, versus two dads.

But hey...I didn't choose my parents either, did I? I mean, this still implies there's something fundamentally wrong with having two gay people as your parents. This is placing the problem with the gay parents, while imo the problem lies in society not accepting this. If it were generally accepted, would the child have any problems other than the usual?

This is what they call combatting the symptoms, not the disease.

Not really, but it does leave it open to further discussion. If you had been adopted, would you have wanted to grow up with two fathers?? If given the choice of course.

Who cares, as long as they take good care of me, and none of my dads is acting real queer in public, like Big Gay Al from Southpark

But seriously, it may be that its something wrong with my thought processes, and my logic. And the logic of most of the American public, but the thought of two men together is disheartening, if only a little. Once 2 guys start making out in public is when it becomes a bit more then that, for me. Not entering the range of disgust yet, but I will definetely have the impulse to look away.

Well, you're not the only one. I know enough people that don't have any problems with gay people that still don't like the sight of males kissing. I am one of them you know. Can't even tell why, but I can't stop the feeling.

Obviously I have no way to test this hypothosis, but I think I would have grown up quite a bit differently had that been the case. How? I don't know, but I can only assume that it would have a negative effect on me, could even drive me to a life of crime or drug use. Or at the very least cause a further lack of respect for the life style. But then again, maybe things would have been different and I would have excepted it. I only base this analysis on my current personality, and the fact that its quite similar to a friend of mine. Who has a father who divorced his mom later in life because he was gay, its not the same, but he is now more homo phobic then anyone else I know.

I respect your views, just some things I don't understand.

I would sooner think it's the other way round...your friend is not homophobic because his dad is gay I think, this has more to do that he lost his dad to 'gayness'. His reaction is pretty normal.
If you've had two caring and loving fathers, who have raised you to be a good human being, how could you hate them? Or at the least be negatively affected? That is a contradictio in terminis...a good experience causing a negative ressponse.