Night Club Blast in Tel Aviv

[Yao]

sheryar...if you knew just a little bit about the struggle that Israel has been though to stay in existence...I Have to agree with Dave, that remark is the most improbable thing I've ever heard.

Furthermore: accusations of the sort you make, are generally taken more seriouslt if you provide sources to back them up. Don't go around stating things you can't prove, show us where you get the knowledge, ok?

I'm thru with this discussion until I get some answer that makes sense.

[sheryar]

heh, im through with this discussion because there is no answer that makes sense other than the fact that both sides are wrong and that the guards outside the club weren't brave, and if they _were_ brave than the suicide bombers were braver.

[Yao]

Now if you would drop the last part...I'd totally agree with you! Now it's only 50%...

[fishingnut]

geez i thought my views of the world where alittle askew, but this guy has me beat

[sheryar]

geez i thought my views of the world where alittle askew, but this guy has me beat

hell man, i just dont think they were brave! my perspective on the world is fine.

lets drop it like its hot.









really.

[Civic_Zen]

Geez, sheryar you need help.

Dave, glad you are OK and nobody you knew was affected. Hopefully, as you said, things can still move forward and this cowardly act won't hinder any peace settlements that could have come. Yes sheryar, I used cowardly there and in the proper context, I can assure you.

[davetlv]

Hey Civic, its always nice to see you in this part of the [MS] universe!

I've been thinking alot recently about the future of both Israel and Palestine, below, for those who are interested, i've jotted down some thought!

The challenges to the peace process are huge - from both sides. In the political arena alone you have both Palestinians and Israelis who want nothing to do with the the peace process in any form whatsoever, let alone those maniacs on the fringes.

The palestinian people have been sold down the river, not just by the UN and other arab countries, but by their own leadership in the past. Whilst supporting acts of terrorism and mass murder against israeli civillians they have allowed successive Israeli government justify the occupation of the territories on the grounds of 'national security'.

Although i support Sharon's disengagement plan, i'm not entirely convinced that Sharon is able to go the whole way and disengage from the West Bank as well. Whilst manics continue to blow themselves up he will always argue national security to maintain our illegal occupation of the West Bank.

Abu Mazen realises this. In my opinion he's one of the most astute political leaders our planet has at the moment. He recognises that as soon as Palestinians stop murdering Israelis in Israel, Sharon can no longer claim the high ground and international pressure is transferred on to Israel.

Israelis, who traditionally have been much more political centrists, also realise this. The majority of us know that once our streets, bars, cafes, clubs etc become safer, we will get rid of Sharon and his Likud party and replace them with a centerist government who will seriously negotiate with the Palestinians about the creation of a viable Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza.

Many of us in Israel expect this to lead to some form of 'civil' revolution in Israel - the majority who believe in a two state solution and a minority who oppose it.

This is why this recent homicide attack, as barbaric and obscene as it was towards Israels, hurts the Palestinians far more.

Just some thoughts!

[face]

Re: Night Club Blast in Tel Aviv

i wish i could be more optimistic about the situation at the moment. and after hearing mustafa barghouthi speak here in dc last week, my feelings were only accentuated.

'abbas has hadrly done a thing since taking office. then again, he only won because 1) the us and israel wanted him to, 2) the PA employs some 150,000 loyal workers (whose families in turn remain loyal to fateh), and 3) barghouthi is essentially too young (he still gained a respectable 20% of the vote, mind you).

fateh remains not only corrupted but fragmented. just recently kata'ib shuhada' al-aqsa (al-aqsa martyrs brigadiers) stormed a fateh meeting and shot the whole place up because they 'weren't invited.' as for the PA, it essentially remains the same. there is no accountability for asset management or monies received, cronyism prevails to this day, and it certainly has no 'authority' over the more radical hamas, islamic jihad, and others--hell, the PA doesn't even have a judiciary!

as long as 'abbas continues feigning a crackdown on 'militants,' sharon and the likud will have every reason to pull out of gaza in exchange for the west bank and the continued building of the 'separation barrier.' as long as this continues, the palestinians will be perceived as the antagonists; they will have no legitimacy or moral high ground to stand on and will have no leverage to negotiate with.

having said that, it is clear from recent studies that the continued occupation is detrimental to israel's economy and will only get worse. because the PA has virtually no control over the dozens of sercurity apparati in the west bank and gaza, it is impossible to fully control hamas and islamic jihad. nonetheless, both have been extremely cooperative regarding this self-imposed ceasefire.

regardless of what hamas' charter says about a palestine from the river to the sea, etc. history has shown that this movement is highly pragmatic in its approach (regarding the use of force, ceasefires and armistices, as well the issue over a 1- or 2-state solution). in the end hamas leaders recognize that they do not speak for the palestinian people; rather, hamas must respect the will of the palestinians whatever that may be.

'abbas has a his work cut out from now until the elections in july. it is hard for a man in his position to avoid the sort of mess 'arafat got himself into. indirectly, corruption within the PA is possibly the #1 obstacle to peace at the moment.