The Devil

[stencil_cp]

Re: The Devil

Anyone else seeing this thread is turning into another Cowardly Vs The Heathens real quick?

Jenks bit first... all CDJ does is reel us in...

[Yao]

Re: The Devil

but to sum it up:
point 1
Mormons believe that Joseph Smith was given divine revelation by God. The Bible says that only the 12 apostles were given divine revelation. John 16:13 Jesus tells the apostles they will be guided by the Holy Spirit to all truths. The book of Mormon was established because Smith says that Jesus told him there was no church suitatble for him to join so Smith was to bring the church back to the world. They say that he is a prophet. The reason there were prophets was to pass on Gods word to the people. The Mormons say that he was given divine revelation because the Bible was not complete. IF that were the case then when Jesus said to the apostles in John 16:13 that they would be guided to all truths then it comes to Smith vs. Jesus to see who is right. If Jesus said ALL TRUTHS then the Mormons do not take the word all to mean all. It seems to them that Jesus was erring when he said all truths. If Smith was right then Jesus was wrong and the very thing Smith is trying to uphold is flawed and useless to anyone, especially Smith.

That doesn?t matter CDJ, because the Mormons believe Smith was right, so you are wrong. And the Muslims think they are right too. And the Hindus too. And the Buddhists too. And me too.

point 2
In 1 Corinthians (mostly chapter 13) tells us of the spiritual gifts and what they are used for and in verse 10 tells us when they are going to cease, which BTW was when the Bible came to completeness. After the last apostle was dead and wrote no more, the Bible was complete and we have all truths. Smith said that there were still truths to be had 1800 years after the Bible was complete so he was given divine revelation. If the Bible tells us that all gifts will cease then how can Smith claim to have something that the Bible says does not exist anymore. Again it comes down to Smith trying to claim things that the very Bible he claims to uphold clearly speaks in opposition of Smith's concept.

Yes, but the Mormons still believe they are right and you are wrong CDJ, because the book of Mormon tells them it is right and the Bible was wrong.

well Satan is an angel cast our of Heaven by God. He is the "prince of the world", "the great tempter", along with other names.

One thing that people need to know about God (even if they do not beleive it is still good info) is that when he designed everything he designed it with free moral will. That means the He is not a dictator. When he made good he also made evil. If not then we would be like robots always doing what we are told with no choice in the matter.

If God created evil?he created something contrary to all he stands for. Explain this.

Oh, and the Mormons and Muslims and me still think we are right and you are wrong. Sorry.

There is a heaven and a hell. the choice is up to each person to decide if they are going to follow what God tells them. It is a very basic concept of choices vs. consequences. Just like we tell our children-- if you pick that up I will spank you, or if you do not bring home passing grades you will be grounded. We tell them of the bad to hopefully encourage the good but it is ultimately their choice. God has done the same for us.

The only reason people do not believe the Bible is because they do not want to see it, not because it is not true. Any person who studies the Bible like they studied in college (assuming they were studious) would understand the truth in it. After a while it becomes self-evident in truth.

Wow. So if I study the Qur?an, the Torah and whatnot I would understand that they are right too? Man?I must be wrong on so many fronts, and so many ways! Jeez?Life is so boring if I live by one or more of the holy books?I don?t wanna live in such a boring colourless world, I think I?ll jump off a cliff. Oh..fuck?su?cide is a sin. Damn what a predicament!

BTW: I and the Muslims and the Mormons think you are wrong. They have books, and I have no book but I just think you are wrong.

Fact: We are here.

HOLY FUCK WE JUST AGREED ON SOMETHING!!

Fact: We were created, no scientific evidence says otherwise. I challenge anyone to show scientific evidence we came from a gelatinous blob.

Uhm?how can you call our creation a fact? Lol?we scientists still have more proof we can show you than you can show us. All you have is a book that might?ve been written by a buch of cheaters. Rather unconvincing mate. C14 carbon dating technique is a proven correct one, and it has helped us find out quite some stuff. Oh, and how do you explain all those other human forms that existed? I mean, damn?tell me what I?m looking at when I?m holding the skull of an Autralophitecus Africanus that lived over 3 million years ago. Hm. Either your logic is flawed, or Adam and Eve must?ve been the ugliest guy and chick to have ever walked the face of the earth.

Oh, and the Muslims, the Mormons and me...well...we still think you are wrong dude.

Fact: All cultures look for a supreme being. If man were the pinnacle of existence then explain the religious phenomenon that has existed for as long as man has. We are all looking for the greater good we know is out there. It is by design we feel that way.

Or by fear, or simply because we?re a herd species. Any reason will do.

And I almost forgot to tell you that you're seriously mistaken. Even the Hindus now seem to think so.

Fact: All forms of religious doctrine except Christianity have been proven false by breaking down the book/people that/who claim to be their guidance. The Bible is the only one that has stood the test of time. It has been proven true time after time after time even in the highest doubt.

Lol. This cracks me up. The Muslims say the same about their book, and most other religions too. Hm?now who?s the big fat liar in here? I think the odds that the Qur'an or the Torah or any other book is actually right and the Bible wrong are evenly split.

Just because most people do not understand the Bible does not make it not understandable. Imagine if your math prof in trig class gave you the book and said I will be back at the end of the year and there will be a test to see if you studied. Good luck and he left. You have 2 choices 1. Pass 2. Fail There is no in-between here. You can not almost pass or almost fail. The choice is yours. At the end of the year there will only be two types of people in the class, those who studied to pass and those who did not. It will be up to each person to decide to study or not. When the teacher comes back and gives the test it will be plain and clear who studied and who did not. The Bible is the same. IF people put as much effort into learning the absolute truth of the Bible as they did to pass college then there would not be so many false doctrines out there.

Uh-oh. I think I got a D- on this one.

btw: you're very wrong. Someone else told me that Buddha was the only true prophet. But then again...A Muslim told me Mohamed was the only one.

The Bible is the absolute truth of everything, it is proven so through time (the ultimate test)

If it is that easy?maybe I should start working on Yao?s Book of Absolute Truths. Thank you for your inspiration. Can I persuade you to be my first follower? With such rock-strong believer behind me, I can't go wrong as a prophet methinks.


Nothing personal, you?re still a nice guy, but with a bit strange view on things IMO I understand the Bible btw, I just don't believe it. It's not a choice you know, I just don't believe the book. Can you understand that?

[neoee]

Re: The Devil

^^^ :ROFLMAO:

But seriously, good points Yao and Bsully.

Cowardly, I know you do get a ton of shit from some of the others but I do enjoy these discussions so I hope you can look past the ridicule and continue the dialogue. Discussions like these are how I form my views on God and the universe, though you may not agree with them.

[ian]

Re: The Devil

^^ fuck me.. look who it is.

Yo my fellow Cleckhuddersfaxian, hows it hanging?

Not bad thanks, life's busy but good. Congratulations on your little'un you must be a very proud dad!

[Jenks]

Re: The Devil

Nice work Yao.

[Yao]

Re: The Devil

It was a reflex

[cowardly dj]

Re: The Devil

Yao, Yao, Yao..... you flatter me.


OK so if you guys think that religion and the Bible are so wrong then instead of you telling me to prove to you that the Bible is real and authentic, you bring me anything about the Bible from anywhere and on any Biblical subject and I will get you an answer as to why the Bible is the authourity over it.

You say prove the Bible is real I say you prove it is not.

[Yao]

Re: The Devil

Actually, you don't have to prove it to me man. I just don't believe it

Was just trying to show you what I was experiencing when I was asking you for your opinion, but on the other hand it just doesn't matter really...

For me the Bible is 'wrong' in the sense that it's just another religious book that doesn't convince me...you can't prove a quote with another quote, and you don't have any empirical data to back it up. For you the bible is the authority over everything, to me it's just not.

One question though: why haven't you answered or referred to, at any given moment, that letter "why can't I own a Canadian?". It may look like a joke, but it's not. I want you to read it, and tell how it is that you say the Bible is your authority over everything, but you still ignore a lot of commands that are in there?

[BSully828]

Re: The Devil

Well i can't speak for anyone else but I never said that religion or the Bible were wrong, I just take issue with the idea that the Bible is the only way or the "ultimate truth" as you put it. The very notion that God would create a world overflowing with such diversity yet demand that all must conform to one mode of worship (let it be Christianity, Islam, Judeaism whatever) is antithetical to everything He/She/It/They stands for.

All the great works of man - the Bible, Koran, Torah, Upanishads, Vedas ect...- are not instruction manuals. They are guides, an "Understanding the Universe and Your Place In It For Dummys". The stories that inhabit their pages are parables, not historical accounts, and are meant to shed light on different aspects of what it means to be human. All those works give their own blueprint on connecting to that incredible power that exists out there as well as with in you. There are many ways up the mountain, but once you get to the top the view is the same.

Each religion was devolped in a unique time by unique cultures with unique ideas. 6th grade history tells you that no culture starts the same, so each take on "God" would, obviously, be different. Through time they have borrowed, adapted, reshaped and altered various images and symbols from earlier religions to offer a new take on the oldest idea. Noah and the Flood, the birth and flight of Moses, the death and resurrection of Jesus - these are all updated versions of stories that existed long before Genesis 1:1 was written.

Its my feeling that those who really understand the meaning of faith do not care whether one is a christian, a jew, a muslim, buddhist, taoist, zoroastrian - because the mode of worship is not important, it is the sincerity and honesty behind that worship that is the key. If God does work in mysterious ways, than there is none more mysterious than the different forms God has used to show himself to man.

[ian]

Re: The Devil

All the great works of man - the Bible, Koran, Torah, Upanishads, Vedas ect...- are not instruction manuals. They are guides, an "Understanding the Universe and Your Place In It For Dummys".

This is a problem though, because if you read some of these books you've mentioned you'll find that this view isn't compatible with any of them. They are distinctive and exclusive. For example, the bible says "All scripture is God breathed" in other words it is from the mouth of God. This verse along with a lot of other scriptures make it clear that the bible is intended to be a lot more than JUST a guide. Whether you believe that or not it up to you, but to lump them all together and just call them "guides to understanding the universe and your place in it" is just plain wrong!

All religions are not the same, and cannot all be right. Something that is inherent in pretty much every major religious belief is that it is believed to be the ONLY way to God. To a Muslim, a Christian must be wrong, to a Christian, a Muslim must be wrong... and so on! They are not compatible with each other - therefore they must be either be right or wrong.

[Yao]

Re: The Devil

They are all wrong. Seriously mate. I'm right, they're wrong, I'm tellin' ya.....

[stencil_cp]

Re: The Devil

sully & ian are both right. yao = the devil .

they are guides, but their claim to divination is part of what separates them from more pedestrian spirituality books. that and age, following and density. don't know the other ones much, but christianity at least claims to bridge that gap between how we live and believe, and Everything after that that we Cannot know and consequently generate extreme anxieties over. these religious works are a guide because they can allow us to live comfortably with all that uncertainty of death and morality and judgement because He'll get you into heaven, the Big Guy's got our backs, but only as long as we've got His... and (much to my chagrin) since god won't come out of the clouds and send us all on holy quests, we've got to have faith that the books are right, or else we go to hell...

[Yao]

Re: The Devil

"I hear voices over the radio....from the devil...."

[BSully828]

Re: The Devil

You're right Ian - they are distinctive and exclusive - but what I was referring to is the underlying message found in all the world's religions. It's basically the "Golden Rule" and just about every religion tackles that idea in its own way. They may use different prayers, symbols, spirits and messiahs but deep down they all involve a message of love for yourself, your neighbor (near and far), your life (here and hereafter) and your creator (insert whatever name you like).

Now where all these different religions get it wrong is in the way the ostracize and target those who see the world differently. "We are better because we follow this path". They take a very beautiful message and twist it to fit a specific motivation (usually involving politics, power and wealth). The Bible, the Torah, the Koran - in the hands of polluted minds they have all been used to defend oppression, brutal conquest, murder and hate - all in the name of God. In that respect they are quite similar.

[stencil_cp]

Re: The Devil

"I hear voices over the radio....from the devil...."

i caught you playing records backwards again, didn't i?