2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

It's not about who started what, we could go on about this forever, it's about how we move foward.

Agreed

In the past it was said that Mr Arafat who was the stumbling block on the path to peace. He's not around anymore so who's the problem now? Mr Abbas? I don't think so.

Whilst Arafat was clearly a stumbling block in the process, he was not the sole problem. I repeat what I said earlier, when organisations like Hamas, who incidentally are on course to take something like 45% of the vote in the election scheduled for January, claim that my country has NO right to exist, what are we to do?

If the leaders of Israel really want peace with the Palestinians then now is the time to do it. The withdrawl from Gaza was a step foward but when two steps are taken back then nothing has been achieved at all.

Why is it always for Israel to do it?

Untter nonsense. Whilst we were pulling out of Gaza Abbas should have been disarming its terrorist organisations. He failed to do that, as is stated in the road map. Israel has shown on more than one occasion what it is prepared to do for peace, isn't it about time the Palestinians start doing the same? The basic demand on them by the quartet is that they disarm Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al-aqsa brigade. Let them start that process before Israel does any thing else.

( Your statement quoted above is a little ironic don't you think?)

Not really.

Yes living inside a cage ,arent you with me on that ???

No i'm not with you on that, please do explain

if not let me give you some facts ,

Please do

Gaza is the most populated peace of land in the world , you cant leave this territory due to border closing by the Isreali army ,which means no business and no work and no travelling even for the lucky ones who get the chance to work in Isreal , A beautiful big wall that sperates you from the rest of the world which is built to protect Isreal against suicide attacks . remember what happened last week in Natanya , these are not the steps to be taken Dave , leaving Gaza was good but what after .??

Your paragraph is a bit confused, or you are. You seem to be combining both Gaza and the West Bank into one generalisation here. Let me try and explain it to you.

Gaza first. Israel withdrew in September. Last month crossing between Gaza and Egypt opened after assurances made to the quartet and Israel that no one on Israels wanted list would be allowed to enter Gaza. Egypt and PA in control of border. Lo and behold, what do you know, day after boarder with Egypt opened wanted terrorist appear on front pages of Palestinian papers photographed in Gaza, where they are NOT meant to be.

With that in mind, you expect Israel to open its own boarders to the Gazans? Israel, like every nation state, has a right to determine who enters and leaves their country. As for the sad wails about no work in Gaza, and Gazans want to come into Israel to work, big fucking deal.

If the PA had not squandered billions then maybe Gaza might not be such a hell hole - think about what $100 million alone could do for Gazans, in terms of building their economy. Instead where did that money go, except to Arafats personal accounts and for paying the families of homicide bombers. As for Gazans wanting work in Israel, well, gee, lets see, seeing as their fucking intifada caused a near collapse of the Israeli economy, and unemployment is high, why should we let foreign nationals into work?

The West Bank - Personally if i was in charge i would pul out tomorrow, but i'm not. We had to do something to protect our people, so we built, in most parts, a temporary structure. This structure did not follow the so called green line. The incidents of attacks in Isreali cities has more or less fallen into single digits for this year, and considering three years before we started on the wall we were hitting nearly triple digits, i think the wall is working just fine thanks.

I think the old generation palestinians and Isrealis hate each other , why dont we work on the new generations ??? I find this the only solution, teach them to coexcist amd to understand each other , Isreal has the power on this matter , it and only it can change this problem , arent you with me on that Dave ???

Sorry no i'm not with you, i believe your assessment is actually wrong.

I disagree that the elder generation hate each other, I actually think its the elder generations who should be paving the way towards peace. Most of the the elder generations are not, or have not, been involved with terrorism.

What power do you think Israel has? You might have read the other day about a football match in Barcelona between Barcelona (at least i think it was them) and an Israeli/Palestinian joint peace team. The event was organised by the Peres Peace Centre. In the news here a few days after the event we read the the Palestinian FA will be punishing the Palestinian players who took part in the game. So, how much can Israel do?

[thesightless]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

umm, the anal part of needs to correct something.

the 3 most populated areas in the world by ppl per square foot are

bombay india, hong kong, lefrak city in Queens NY

[Bululu]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

To dave,

So you want things to stay the way they are ??? and when I was saying open the borders , I ment the port, te airport that was destroysed , Isreal is unfair with the palestinians, after 50 years of colonising they leave a small peace of land and they say thats a big step forward to peace , a joke for me.

PS: my mestake about Gaza being the most populated city but its among the most crowded , and I am sure of it .

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Don't forget that the Jews are not new to the area Bululu....they used to co-exist with the Arabians in that area...

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

To dave,

So you want things to stay the way they are ??? and when I was saying open the borders , I ment the port, te airport that was destroysed , Isreal is unfair with the palestinians, after 50 years of colonising they leave a small peace of land and they say thats a big step forward to peace , a joke for me.

PS: my mestake about Gaza being the most populated city but its among the most crowded , and I am sure of it .

I never said i wanted things to stay the same, far from it.

However if this is truely a process, where both parts are equal, lets see something from the Palestinians for a change except pointless posturing.

The fact that you see Israelis as colonisers is interesting. Who did we actually colonise?

Mark Twain, in Innocents Abroad wrote, describing the Palestine he saw during his travels in 1867,

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)

The are plenty of other examples of the state of Palestine under Ottoman rule in the late 1800's which clearly show a next to empty land, controlled by absent landlords and without any real permanant residents. A hand full of biblical cities had clusters of Jews and around Jaffa, Haifa and parts of the Galil there were arabs.

A desolate land with pockets of inhabitants, Jewish, Christian and Muslim.

My dear bululu, there are two sides to every story, maybe you should check them out.

[Bululu]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Yao I already mentioned that I have no problem with any religon or race , some of my closest friends are jews so yes the jews have the right to live there , what I am trying to say is that Isreal has the upper hand, and violence will bring violence , so dont just blame it on palestinians, they are the ones loosing on this story.

Dave I know our debate well take long and long and long , we are not the first ones to talk about it and we wont be the last to , and in this special case , jews and arabs every side will claim that they are right and the other is wrong , hope one day this case will be solved once and for all but I have no faith to see it , tensions will always be there .

[dig72]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Whilst Arafat was clearly a stumbling block in the process, he was not the sole problem. I repeat what I said earlier, when organisations like Hamas, who incidentally are on course to take something like 45% of the vote in the election scheduled for January, claim that my country has NO right to exist, what are we to do?



Why is it always for Israel to do it?

Untter nonsense. Whilst we were pulling out of Gaza Abbas should have been disarming its terrorist organisations. He failed to do that, as is stated in the road map. Israel has shown on more than one occasion what it is prepared to do for peace, isn't it about time the Palestinians start doing the same? The basic demand on them by the quartet is that they disarm Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah's own Al-aqsa brigade. Let them start that process before Israel does any thing else.

Every Palestinian leader that's chosen is always mocked and shown very little respect by the Israeli leaders. Instead of supporting them they are ridiculed. How will anyone vote for leaders who are treated as jokes and never taken seriously?

I believe the reason why Hamas has so much support is because, many Palestinians feel that if it weren't for the armed resistance, life for them would be alot worse off.
To me this just demonstrates the hopelessness felt by many Palestinians.
They believe like the most of us that, talk and only talk will ever get you so far.

Why are for Israel to do it? Because they are in control and have much to gain.

You talk about the road map as if the Israeli government is committed to it..
Civilian deaths, road blocks, curfews, ease of constriction of movement, oppression and humiliation, are not the normal way of life for anyone let alone the Palestinians. We could go on and on but nothing will be achieved unless a real effort is put in by both sides and I don't use the words 'real effort' loosly either.

You say let Palestinians start the peace process, when in fact both should be.

They will blame each other for ever and it still won't change a thing.
Action and a real committment are what we need right now.

The two can live together peacefully and have done so for many years.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to point out what has already stated and that is, there's two sides to every coin.

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Every Palestinian leader that's chosen is always mocked and shown very little respect by the Israeli leaders. Instead of supporting them they are ridiculed. How will anyone vote for leaders who are treated as jokes and never taken seriously?

Please, again utter nonsense. How far do you think any Palestinian leader will get if they are supported by Israel? To prove that they are not an israeli stooge the must be friction between the twon leaders,

I believe the reason why Hamas has so much support is because, many Palestinians feel that if it weren't for the armed resistance, life for them would be alot worse off.
To me this just demonstrates the hopelessness felt by many Palestinians.
They believe like the most of us that, talk and only talk will ever get you so far.

Actually most of Hamas's support comes because of their programme of health care, education and other social services, whilst the PA squander money on Palestinians, Hamas puts money and resources into the Palestinian society.

Talk as much as you frigging want, whilst you talk we disengage. Whilst you talk Hamas and Islamic Jihad re-arm themselves. Israel has ALWAYS be ready to talk, but instead of talking the Palestinians seem happier to continue this viscious cycle of murder. The PA have yet to begin the process of dis-armingl, whilst Israel disengages. Enough is enough, the Palestinians SHOULD be forced to come back to the table, but ONLY once we can see them clamping down on their terror orgs.

Why are for Israel to do it? Because they are in control and have much to gain.

Dude, it takes two. Two. Not one, but two. This is meant to be a process where both parties need to act. Time for the PA to start acting no?

You talk about the road map as if the Israeli government is committed to it..
Civilian deaths, road blocks, curfews, ease of constriction of movement, oppression and humiliation, are not the normal way of life for anyone let alone the Palestinians. We could go on and on but nothing will be achieved unless a real effort is put in by both sides and I don't use the words 'real effort' loosly either.

Israel is commited to the road map. Whats your point? Stop bombing our cafes, clubs, shopping malls, buses. Stop shelling our southern towns. Start arresting terrorist - then, and only then, will the West Bank be able to return to the freedom they had prior to 94/95. Come to the table with serious negotiations and we'll leave. Its that fucking simple.

You say let Palestinians start the peace process, when in fact both should be.

No, I'm saying that the PA show they are serious about peace and start to dia-arm the murdering bastards, then come back to the table where we have been waiting for months.

They will blame each other for ever and it still won't change a thing.
Action and a real committment are what we need right now.

I believe that the disengagement shows Israel iscommitted to peace - lets see those arms now please!

[thesightless]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

damn this thread really took off in terms of context without a reall bitch slap arguement. congrats.

[robprunzit]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Without much to say, I have to agree with Dave, and back up Yao in his previous post at the end of page 1. I'm not Israeli or Jewish. But I see one side trying to make peace, and one side sabotaging peace.

Israel continues to make efforts, over and over, and over again. They are bombed and they retaliate, but that hardly makes up for the families who have lost loved ones in Israel. It is always up to Israel to make the changes, make the difference. That just isn't right, or fair, to a people who are constantly attacked by those who could care less about life.

Israel built the wall to be safer, and it is working. Good job for Israel. If the peoples of the Gaza strip don't like their situation, they should stand up against their own, and stop the attackers coming from their own side. But they want do that, they will only sit back and pretend they know nothing, out of fear.

I'm sorry but I'm sick of this state of fear that the radical side made over the whole Middle East. Look at Syria, media people killed because they voiced opinion.

Fear. That is what is holding back the people of the Gaza strip. When they stand up in mass and stop their own, something will start to change. The masses could easily overtake the radicals if only they would organize and take a stand.

If they did this, the wall one day would come down!

[dig72]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Please, again utter nonsense. How far do you think any Palestinian leader will get if they are supported by Israel? To prove that they are not an israeli stooge the must be friction between the twon leaders,



Actually most of Hamas's support comes because of their programme of health care, education and other social services, whilst the PA squander money on Palestinians, Hamas puts money and resources into the Palestinian society.

Talk as much as you frigging want, whilst you talk we disengage. Whilst you talk Hamas and Islamic Jihad re-arm themselves. Israel has ALWAYS be ready to talk, but instead of talking the Palestinians seem happier to continue this viscious cycle of murder. The PA have yet to begin the process of dis-armingl, whilst Israel disengages. Enough is enough, the Palestinians SHOULD be forced to come back to the table, but ONLY once we can see them clamping down on their terror orgs.



Dude, it takes two. Two. Not one, but two. This is meant to be a process where both parties need to act. Time for the PA to start acting no?



Israel is commited to the road map. Whats your point? Stop bombing our cafes, clubs, shopping malls, buses. Stop shelling our southern towns. Start arresting terrorist - then, and only then, will the West Bank be able to return to the freedom they had prior to 94/95. Come to the table with serious negotiations and we'll leave. Its that fucking simple.



No, I'm saying that the PA show they are serious about peace and start to dia-arm the murdering bastards, then come back to the table where we have been waiting for months.



I believe that the disengagement shows Israel iscommitted to peace - lets see those arms now please!

You need to calm down mate. We're trying to have a civil discussion whilst expressing opinions. No need to jump on me because you disagree with what I've said.

I'm not the enemy mate.

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I can hardly say that Dave was really attacking you dude, he prolly never will get very personal, I know him al too well for that...

@ Bululu: I wasn't implying that you were in any way being intolerant, just pointing out that you forgot a little part of history

@Rob: Good post...I agree with your last paragraph too.

Dave was right about the PA vs the 'civil organisations' like Hamas: the PA has been looking too much after it's own (financial) interests, thereby forfaiting the support from the Palestinians, while the so much despised Hamas et al have made a commitment to binding the people to their cause: I have no idea how well the new PA is doing with the Palesitian people at the moment, but they'd better shape up if they are to be taken seriously.

I am a little suspicious about the coïncidencae of the new hardline Iranian president and the Hamas and Islamic Jihad unilaterally ending the ceasefire: might it have something to do with a renewed push for battle by certain financers?

[dig72]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

I can hardly say that Dave was really attacking you dude, he prolly never will get very personal, I know him al too well for that...

It's a very passionate issue for many, but I think you can also understand where I'm coming from.

[Yao]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

Sure bro, and a good discussion should always be held on the edge I've kknow Dave for a while now, and I sincerely think he has a pretty balanced opinion about this: hey may strike you as being very pro-Israel now, but he sure won't hesitate to kick is own govt's ass if need be....lol

What other people have with the death of Elvis or JFK, I have with the death of Yitzak Rabin: I still know exactly where i was and what i was doing: sitting home ate the couch with my mother watching the news, and when they announced Rabin was dead, I looked at my mom and said: "now it's gonna be war again for a long time there, and it will be extremely hard to get the process back on track". I was 15 at the time.

[davetlv]

Re: 2 questions about the middle east. not iraqi related.

First off Dig72 if you think i'm attacking you then please accept my appologies, that was not my intent. You, like me, are entitled to your own opinions.

My point was a simple, but clearly convoluted. You (the West) seem to think that Israel should make all the efforts for peace whilst the PA does nothing. I disagree - i believe that BOTH sides need to make painful concessions to bring these past 58 years to an end. Those of us on the left here are bracing ourselves for our own internal struggle to withdraw from the West Bank, but even we realise that after Gaza we need to see some sign from the PA that they are also serious about peace.

The framework created by Oslo is now dead. The road map is going the same way. Barak's offer to Aratwat back in 2000 would have given the Palestinians almost everything they demanded, including East Jerusalem. Every move towards peace that Israel agrees on/takes is thrown back in its face by an unresponsive PA.

So if i'm getting a little bit 'heated' here its because it amazes me how the west can still blame Israel for the empass in the peace process whilst ignoring the PA and their role.