...tried in new york?! wtf man

[runningman]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Miro the Constitution covers US citizens not foreign terrorists that have been held up in gitmo.. I am canadian, when I go to the states I am not covered by the constitution. So there goes that theory.

They should have had a quiet execution right after they caught him. Giving them a public platform (Over weeks even months I bet) and basically martyring him is ridiculous. Now we will get to hear his views and why he did it. Nothing like inspiring the younger brigade. I can hear the chants now across the radical muslim world "KSM, KSM,KSM".. I'm sure we will hear a lot of judeo-christian and zionism in the weeks to come.

I like how gutless Obama is out of the country as well when this news broke. He is fucking gutless!!

[chunky]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Didn't this bloke give a confession after he was tortured? Surley him saying he did it and proving he did it are 2 separate things, Are they going to bring some evidence other than his confession

[bobjuice]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Didn't this bloke give a confession after he was tortured? Surley him saying he did it and proving he did it are 2 separate things, Are they going to bring some evidence other than his confession

[runningman]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

he probably is the guy that cashed the check from the US gov't after it happened chunky.

I would like to see the proof myself considering I don't believe the 9/11 commission story.

[superdave]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Miro the Constitution covers US citizens not foreign terrorists that have been held up in gitmo.. I am canadian, when I go to the states I am not covered by the constitution. So there goes that theory.

They should have had a quiet execution right after they caught him. Giving them a public platform (Over weeks even months I bet) and basically martyring him is ridiculous. Now we will get to hear his views and why he did it. Nothing like inspiring the younger brigade. I can hear the chants now across the radical muslim world "KSM, KSM,KSM".. I'm sure we will hear a lot of judeo-christian and zionism in the weeks to come.

I like how gutless Obama is out of the country as well when this news broke. He is fucking gutless!!

I agree that I don't see how the Constitution applies to KSM. He's not a U.S. citizen. I don't see why we should give him rights just like one. We haven't treated him like a citizen, so why start now. I'm no lawyer, but water boarding and holding him in Cuba would be against a citizen's rights. We got what was needed from him for future attacks and he should be held as a foreign enemy combatant and treated as such. I believe there are Geneva convention rules for these situations.

[chunky]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

We got what was needed from him for future attacks .

What exactly was that then? I'm very dubious as to why all these so called sleeper cells have eight years sleeping. The IRA seemed to do a much better job at terrorism. Its not like the country is locked down and people can't go out. I really don't think this is because of the war in Afghanistan or Government's are doing such a good job.

[superdave]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

What exactly was that then? I'm very dubious as to why all these so called sleeper cells have eight years sleeping. The IRA seemed to do a much better job at terrorism. Its not like the country is locked down and people can't go out. I really don't think this is because of the war in Afghanistan or Government's are doing such a good job.

We got information from him that stopped future attacks. Al Qaeda was planning to attack Los Angeles and other large cities. He also gave us information how the terrorists work and plan their attacks. Whether you think torture is right or wrong, it worked to prevent attacks.

[chunky]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

We got information from him that stopped future attacks. Al Qaeda was planning to attack Los Angeles and other large cities. He also gave us information how the terrorists work and plan their attacks. Whether you think torture is right or wrong, it worked to prevent attacks.

The ticking time bomb scenario. Have we got Jack Bauer to thank.

Source?

[superdave]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

The ticking time bomb scenario. Have we got Jack Bauer to thank.

Source?

Jack Bauer, the hero of the right, Fox News and the tea party nation. Only he could exist on a station owned by Fox. As for my source, you got me, I made it all up.

[Miroslav]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Miro the Constitution covers US citizens not foreign terrorists that have been held up in gitmo.. I am canadian, when I go to the states I am not covered by the constitution. So there goes that theory.

Actually, it's not quite so simple.

This has been an ongoing general debate for a long time now, and there are many interpretations of it under different circumstances. There is no simple answer for every case, which is why these guys were being held in Gitmo to begin with; no one could figure out what the hell to do with them, legally speaking.

Certainly, there are many cases of obvious and perfectly acceptable differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens under the Constitution (for instance, only citizens vote); but there are other cases where it's not necessarily so black and white (due process for non-citizen who broke a law). In many countries around the world, if you break the law there, then the legal process of investigation and potential conviction can apply to you even if you aren't a citizen of that country.

And then you can get into more technical arguments about the wording and intention of the documents. Toasty, step in here and correct me pls... but it is my understanding that as far as Due Process goes, if you look at the 5th and the 14th Amendments of the US Constitution, they really specify what the government will and will not do; not what rights certain categories of people have. And if you look at the 14th Amendment (the state version), you'll find that the authors used an interesting distinction in Section 1 between "citizens of the United States" and "any person"....why?

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

But beyond that, my opinionated point with my statement was this: in the long run, it becomes very difficult to sustain multiple separate standards for key basic treatments of human beings. This is because if we wish to recognize certain very basic rights in each other as citizens, we are compelled to recognize that they are ultimately founded int he realm of human rights. If you extend all fairness and rights to citizens but you torture and malign all other categories of human beings with impunity...I don't think the system will work for long. Bear in mind that we do not have a separate set of due process laws and standards for "non-citizens"; we really have one set. I think that if we started down the path of interpretation that you suggest, we will find that it is a surprisingly slippery slope that sets the stage for incursions into everyone's rights, citizen and non-citizen alike.

[chunky]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Why do you think Gitmo was even created in the first place? Because legally, no one has been sure what the hell to do with these people.

This one is simple you let them go. If you dont intend to prosecute or have no evidence you let them go. You don't keep someone locked up because you don't know what to do with them.

[Miroslav]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

This one is simple you let them go. If you dont intend to prosecute or have no evidence you let them go.

Clearly, based on the article at the beginning of this thread, they intend to prosecute. Now, I'm not too well qualified to debate on whether they should have been tried in military courts as war criminals or through regular courts as regular criminals (which is what Obama has apparently decided), but the key point is that they still go through whatever pre-defined due process to which they are deemed entitled to as opposed to being killed at the arbitrary decision of whoever is there right now and has a gun.

[chunky]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Clearly, based on the article at the beginning of this thread, they intend to prosecute.

But how long have they taken to decide this? Has new evidence come to light? In the UK you can hold people without charge for 28 days. These people in Guantanamo people have been there for years.

[salmag]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

I think the timing is very suspicious. 8 years? I guess public opinion is needed. Maybe to justify more troops in Afghanistan.

[day_for_night]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

wow. what a huge mistake it was voting obama into office....this is just insane. hopefully this idiotic decision brings him down.

WRONG. this...

I agree with Toasty. While it may feel great to just toss our Constitution out the window in favor of administering quick vengeance upon people who commit particularly henious acts, you guys should recognize that you are really favoring the weakening the very set of safeguards that protect YOU. It is not sustainable to have to multiple standards that you arbitrarily apply to different sets of people based upon your emotions; while it may work in one case, sooner or later it is going to produce some horrible results for everyone.

I'm willing to bet that most people suddenly feel very differently about upholding the Constitution as soon as they think the situation has the potential to negatively impact them (Patriot Act, anyone?).

And the reason why people are careful around the subject of terrorism and Islam should be obvious: it's because not nearly all Muslims are terrorists, and history suggest that the line between "good" Muslims and "bad" Muslims tends to blur very quickly when people go too far with their rage. Go look up what this country did to Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor; it wasn't good. History is full of examples like this.

I suspect that where you hold the trial makes little difference for non-legal reasons. The people in NYC who suffered loss have already suffered those losses regardless of the trial location, and in this age of information technology, they will follow the story the same way regardless of where it is.

george bush reversed so many freedoms while he was in office it was mindblowing. thank god someone is actually sticking up for your constitution