Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

[runningman]

[/quote]
My question to you then is, how do we ascend to the higher state? What would you have man do in order to rid himself of the very qualities that make such a venture impossible?[/quote]

Tap her red shoes three times.... Tap.. tap.. tap.. There's no place like home.. .Utopia............ I wish..

[gokada]

The Iraqi invasion is based purely on the profit of oil. Start familiarizing yourselves on how high stock prices have risen since the US has invaded, and start researching the US' many years of association with the bin laden family themselves. It is no coincidence that they were given refuge BY THE USA when the two towers were destroyed.

Funny, people said the first Gulf War was about oil too....but that turned out NOT to be the case. Also, you must remember that most of the bin Laden family disowned Osama, and his Saudi citizenship was revoked in 1991. Bush clearly stated that Iraqi oil is for the Iraqi people. Now having said that, and with so many eyes on the U.S., do you really think the U.S. would forcefully take Iraqi oil? It turns out that France, China, Russia, and the U.N. were all taking bribes from Saddam. Notice that the U.S. is not on that list? Those countries as well as the U.N. are also partly to blame for what's going on over there. Those countries each obtained oil wells in Iraq in exchange for money that Saddam used to fund suicide bombers in Palestine. Wouldn't it be a responsible and fair assumption that Saddam would have supplied other terrorists with funding and weapons?

Here are my beliefs as to why we're really over there, and it might sound like a stretch to some. While I do believe Saddam would have eventually posed a threat to the world, he would have definitely posed a threat to Israel. Israel is the key in this war. It's my belief that we're over there to maintain a military presence in order to protect Israel and to try to spread freedom. The hope is that, just like in the former Communist countries, freedom will prevail. I won't get into a religious discussion, but I believe this is just another battle in a holy war.

Also, please give me some links or names of other news sources besides CNN, FOX, etc...I would like to check those out....

[sacredawe78]

That was Osama Bin Laden. He's from Afghanistan. Not Iraq.

That was Al Qaeda. They're from all over the world. Including Iraq.

Sacredawe - I agree with what you're saying, but I cannot see how you think it can be accomplished. I'm with you 100% in the idea that we, as a species, need to elevate ourselves beyond where we are now - beyond class, race, religion, ect.. ect.. And in order for that to happen we, as a species, have to combine our efforts towards such a goal and eliminate the social constructs I just mentioned.

The problem is that such an act requires all those involved to have the same goal in mind, start on the same level, work in equal partnership - there must be a universal desire among humans as a species to work together. Right now, that is only a dream - forces that have been in play longer than any of us have been alive have been at work maintaining inequity among the human race. Let it be through class structure, or distribution of wealth or whatever - that inequity has been at work for ages. The focus of that work is forged in hatred, ignorance, and fear - and each can manifest itself in evil.

Whether you believe evil begets hatred or vice versa, the fact is there is evil in the world. From reading your posts I feel that you believe (and if I'm misrepresenting you here, I apologize) that there is no quantifying evil - evil is evil no matter what the form. Which I don't agree with, but can certainly understand. For you, the soldier in this video is no different than the hijackers of 9/11 - they both committed an evil act therefore are evil. And you believe that as long as such evil acts occur we, as a species, will never elevate ourselves to that harmonious world.

I'll avoid getting into specifics to keep this brief, but that is where I find fault in your theory. You don't seem to recognize that the type of transcendence you are calling for requires worldwide cooperation. And worldwide cooperation cannot take place until evil has been replaced. You used the phrase "inherent fact of nature" in reference to the apparent "selfishness" of arguing ideas. It is also an "inherent fact of nature" that there is evil in this world.

Despite the fact that there those whose life work it is to do good, there is evil in this world. Regardless of how strongly you want this human race to ascend to higher planes of thought, there is evil in this world. This is a fact no one can argue - there are evil people out there whose sole bent is to defeat and destroy. As long as there are evil people in this world, the type of unification needed to advance our species will always have opposition.

So where is the "ignorance" in this? Am I ignorant because I don't believe the idea of a utopia is possible in our lifetime? Am I too much of a realist because I recognize and acquiesce to this fact? I would love to live in the world you describe and be free of such things as class, wealth, war and evil - but I also understand that along with all our strengths, those foul traits are an "inherent fact of nature" to man.

My question to you then is, how do we ascend to the higher state? What would you have man do in order to rid himself of the very qualities that make such a venture impossible?

unlike your earlier comment, i respect your thoughtfulness here and it reduces the ultimate question to a very clear understanding...

that is : what do we do? what sort of prescpriptive or normative possibilities are there when in fact evil is an "inherent part of nature" and moral progress indeed, does need worldwide cooperation??

in capitalism, relationships are defined by profit and loss...they are not defined by what is good...therefore, we would have to get rid of it

morality has to be a science...that is the only way...it has to be viewed as a consequentialist empirically verifiable thing, where we can see and observe what is good and implement those things while reducing the bad

people such as David Hume and indeed most of the cynics of todays culture would say that "ought does not imply can"...meaning just because something can be scientifically proven, or something is taking for granted as being true for any set period of time does not guarantee that it will happen again...and normative statements have no real clout

so, people tend to say any normative statement such as you should do this or that because it is good gets completely discredited because they would argue that there is no substantial argument that would guaruntee that those things suggested have any real clout...they basically are "pipe dreams"

i think that this sort of thinking needs to be reduced and all together elimated, along with capitalism

i think people think way too deductively...meaning, that there should always be a unified answer to each problem, as if in some sort of absolutist sequence, however, i honestly feel that deductive reasoning is almost an illusion...i feel that given that we live within entropy and given that Hume's arguments make sense, inductive reasoning is the only thing we can do...that is reason based on probablity anyways

soooo...absolutism, such as the psychology in any monotheistic religion, capitalism and its stresses on the individual, the removal of deductivist thinkiing as being valued (i.e. recognizing we are part of nature, not above it)

St. Augustines Great Chain of Being =

God

Angels

Man

Woman

Nature


Need to remove this thinking that is everywhere....


I mean everything I am saying is disjointed and you may have to take it all in associatively for now...but there is something brewing here and it is good

I think if people just sit around say that evil is inherent in nature and use that in itself as a normative basis for their life....evil will just be augmented, not reduced

shouldn't we just try and reduce variables here, rather than produce more for the sake of it??

that takes a transvaluation of values as Nietzche would say

I suggest you read Alisdair McNtyres book "After Virtue" for a complete synopsis of the last 2000+ years in Ethics...it will offer at least an understanding of where we have been

sorry for being cluttered, but as i said, lets simplify things together...fill in some blanks...well progress...and youll see that in our argument, in itself, we have achieved moral utopia...well be dynamic, well stick to a level playing field (the argument), well both depend on each other for our existence, well have "selves", well be concerened with the group and the individual at the same time, and overcome all the paradoxical bonds that weve been sewed to thus far....well be dynamic, avoid dogma, etc

look at Plato's "Meno"...youll notice they try to figure out what virtue is and never really find an answer...

but i say, there arguing in itself achieves all the moral progress and perfections that we can possible make while living in entropy

we should all value such things...reduce morality to a science and value inductive logic...harness the paradox...values...values...values

[Balanc3]

Religion and Philosophy the way of keeping common people quiet. A necessity to keep order and guide the people, like a shepherd and his flock of sheep. They are closely linked yet utter bullshit. :wink:

[sacredawe78]

Philisophy is all about bs just like religion. But hope it works for you. :wink:

we're all philosophers...it is our most basic science, so it pertains to all of us...not just me

[evangelion]

The Iraqi invasion is based purely on the profit of oil. Start familiarizing yourselves on how high stock prices have risen since the US has invaded, and start researching the US' many years of association with the bin laden family themselves. It is no coincidence that they were given refuge BY THE USA when the two towers were destroyed.

I love how all of you that oppose the war start with "reseach this" and "read that" any time someone says something supporting it. Like you are SOOOO much more "cultured" and "educated" and "versed in the ways of the world." In case you haven't "researched" the issue enough Osama Bin Laden has been completely disowned by his entire family. But I heard that on Fox News so there is NO WAY it could possibly be true.

Your "only for oil" comment completely trashed any chance of me taking your post seriously. No one knows what is really going on anymore, so before you continue to try and "enlighten" us....don't.

Start reading real literary resources and turn off the C-Span, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC.

More enlightenment??? Please point me towards these "real literary resources" so I can bring myself up to your level.

[runningman]

i know if sacredawe is talking to not even bother.. he is lost in his perfect world..

[brakada]

^^^^ Yes don't bother. Instead join runningman on his holy crusade against Iran and North Korea.

Funny, people said the first Gulf War was about oil too....but that turned out NOT to be the case.

I think it was at least partially about the oil. Do you think the US would rush in if some oil-less country was invaded? I don't think so, although these are purely my speculations. I have heard a lot of contradicting facts about GW I, so I'm not quite sure what to think, but I'm still allowing the possibility that the Americans were not as well-intended as it may had seemed.

Also, you must remember that most of the bin Laden family disowned Osama, and his Saudi citizenship was revoked in 1991.

Although that is an official fact, I find it hard to believe that he has lost contact with all of his family, after all the Bin Laden's are a big family, but again these are merely my speculations.

Bush clearly stated that Iraqi oil is for the Iraqi people. Now having said that, and with so many eyes on the U.S., do you really think the U.S. would forcefully take Iraqi oil?

It's not that they would forcefully take Iraqi oil. But all the reconstruction of Iraq will be done mostly by American companies and supervised by Americans (like I believe the oil trade is at the moment), thus creating a unique incumbent position on the Iraqi "market" (including the oil market; American companies will probably have the sole right to build and reconstruct oil wells).

It turns out that France, China, Russia, and the U.N. were all taking bribes from Saddam. Notice that the U.S. is not on that list?

Could you please provide a source for your claims? What kind of bribes?

Those countries as well as the U.N. are also partly to blame for what's going on over there. Those countries each obtained oil wells in Iraq in exchange for money that Saddam used to fund suicide bombers in Palestine.

I think the entire world is to blame for what has happened and is happening in Iraq (by which I also mean that a lot if not most of the blame lies on the USA; they were supporting Saddam and helped him remain in power, while they were still "friends").

Regarding the oil wells, I thought that exchanging oil wells for money might be called trade. :wink: I think Iraq had a lot of international debts, so it was kind of logical he had to pay them off somehow (oil included). And do you have any proof, that he used the money he received from the French, Russian and the Chinese, to fund Palestinian psychopaths (suicide bombers). Even though, I believe (again not a fact, but my opinion) that most of the Arab world is funding Palestinian terrorists (including the American friends the Saudis), that's just the way things are.

Wouldn't it be a responsible and fair assumption that Saddam would have supplied other terrorists with funding and weapons?

Not really. :wink: I will get back to that and explain it later...

[asdf_admin]

i know if sacredawe is talking to not even bother.. he is lost in his perfect world..

so very true.

[sacredawe78]

killing people is wrong

if you condone it, then im lost in your fucked up world

asdf and runningman...you guys are such groupies

herded fools

[fishingnut]

it's all about the money...imo
the europeans just had there hand in the cookie jar far to long and they did want to share.

[runningman]

gentlemen the world is in chaos right now.. Ukraine, Iraq and the biggest one of all Africa.. the world doesn't share your same pro-life values.. they strap bombs on themselves.. how do you reason with someone like that?? you can't.. and brakada you should it explain it for once.. you like picking at what we say but no solutions.. ya i can say education, health, but that willl take 30 years to get in place.. so what do we do for the next 30 years?? this battle was necessary to win the war on terror and the war in Iraq to give them education and freedom.. other countries need an example..and the USA needs an aliie to put troops and planes in the event of an Iran, Lebanon or Saudi invasion..

[hear_my_name]

... honestly u guys have to understand.. there are TERRORIST out there that want north americans dead.. fuck!! where the fuck are u hiding in ur moms ass.. for u guys who dont fucking see it
SEPT 11th.. the day the world ended.. rite.. Yes Osama admited that he did plan that.. but where is he hiding.. and Iraq... Sadam has weapons, and his intended use for those was to bomb america.. u fuckin idiots dont see that.. i dont see how u cant!!! u just live in your fuckin sugar coated world.. and u dont care that thousands of innocent ppl died during the Sept 11th attack.. what cant u see.. how can u not see it..

the world is at war becuase THESE PEOPLE want EVERYONE dead..
research before voice your opinon.. becuase someone will come right back at u and bite u in the fuckin ass
what happend in the '93 world trade center bombing..
that was a fuckin attack but no one cared becusae it wasnt a major deal... well clinton didnt really do ne thing about it.. but these things have been happening for years.. and its about time bush went in there and hes stopping it...

fuck all u ppl care about is ur fuckin economy.. yes its a shame that is has gone down but look into the damn future.. what if u wernt here to have kids.. and ur kids to have kids becusae ur dead.. because THEY killed u, beucase thats what they were trained to do.. kill.. most ppl in the middle eastern countries are being trained to kill bystanders.. just becuase they are american..

how could u possible live with yourself.. thinking what u think.. obviously ur too fuckin greedy to see past your rose coloured glasses

this is what the world has come to
u cant do ne thign about it but support them
they are doing this becuase someone out there is threating OUR FREEDOM!!

fuck go read up on it.. maybe now u wont fuckin open ur fuckin stupid ass mouth...

this isnt just to one person.. its all these ppl out there that say.. im agaisnt war.. bush is the terrorist... honestly

where do u get ur resourses from becuase.. they for sure arent correct!!

[evangelion]

Re: Video Captures Battle of Fallujah...

^^ You're right on a couple different levels.

I always wonder what all these people who say they are so against war would do if some terrorist fuck showed up on their doorstep and slaughted their entire family. I guran-fucking-tee they would say one of two things:

1. How could someone let this happen.

2. Where is the nearest gun.

Some people either can't or don't want to realize that they would kill every last one of us (Americans, that is) if given the chance. And they chastise us like little children who "know not what they do" for supporting the man who is trying to ensure that never happens. Whatever, I'm sure most of them are against the war because it's a war, and you are not supposed to support a war because war is bad. Not realizing that this is how every single major civilaztion in human history has been founded. Its the way of the world people...your self richeous, peace loving wishes of diplomacy and reasoning don't exist in the new post 9/11 world. Especially not against this enemy.

I mean could you seriously see Osama and Al-Zukari (spelling) sitting at a table negotiating an end to all of this violence in the Middle East??? Please. If you can I would love to know what color the sky is on the planet you're from. All they want is to kill anyone who stands in their way and then rule over the rest with fear and brutality. It's that simple. Yet some of you go on and on and on and on and on and on bitching and denouncing the only way that we can stop them. It's really quite comical some times. You are so blinded by the belief that war is bad and there should be no war, you don't even stop to think there is no other way. It's kill them before they kill us.

Sad but true...

[Yao]

hear_my_name, you sure don't make a strong point here my friend, and I don't really like the way you adress your fellow forum dwellers. If you really dispise us so mach, leave us alone.

Evangelion: I've already mentioned in another post that Osama has been disowned by his family. Can't find the post right now though, sorry.
So not everyone that is anti-Bush or anti Iraq-war is blind to information.

I for one try to use facts to base my opinion on, not other people's opinions. I rather look@myself as being informed, not nessecarily 'cultured' or 'educated', although the latter one could almost be the same thing.

And one can never be informed enough IMO.